Transcript si (00:16) Hello, I'm Si Sapsford and this is My Private View, a series about how we look at art and comes out of that habit of looking and thinking and of wondering what other people see when they're doing the same thing. Each month, I'll sit down with someone from various creative backgrounds and talk not just about what they make, but how they see, what they notice, what stays with them and what shapes their way of working. I'll also include in each episode, a small reflection, something I've seen or thought about that I can't quite let go of. I'm your host and this is my private view. and this leads me nicely into a musing I had earlier this week. si sapsford (01:04) I've been wondering about why we need to tell or confess, not whether we should, but why. Somewhere, long before priests or therapists, someone sat by a fire and said what they'd seen or who they'd lost or what they'd done. It seems to be something we do. We carry something until it gets too heavy and then we look for someone to give it to. The word itself is interesting. Confess comes from the Latin for acknowledging something openly. Edward the Confessor wasn't called that because he listened to confessions, but because he declared his faith. So the confessor was originally the one who tells. Only later did the word come to mean the one who hears. And who we tell has kept changing. A priest in the old days, a police officer if it was a crime, a parent or a friend, later a doctor or a therapist. and then strangers in an online chat room or call centre, and now perhaps a machine. What stays the same is what we seem to want, not advice necessarily and not judgment, maybe somewhere for the thing to go, like a conveyor belt of things waiting to be filed away. There is also something important about the listener. The priest is bound by the seal of confession. The therapist is bound by confidence. We tell a stranger things we wouldn't tell the people close to us sometimes, perhaps because we hope a stranger has nothing to gain or lose from what we say. So perhaps a confessor has to be in some sense powerless, not powerless to comfort, but powerless to punish or expose. Which brings me to the newest confessor. I use AI myself and I'm not alone. A great many people are already telling it things, their health, their worries, things they might even hesitate to say to anyone else. I should be honest about something. I enjoy it. I put a half-formed thought into a conversation and something comes back that I hadn't thought of maybe. I build on it and come away thinking more broadly than when I began. It's a pleasure and I won't pretend otherwise. Part of it, I think, is attention. noticed that in ordinary life attention has become scarce. When I speak to someone, their attention might be half on their screen, shopping or watching the antics of a cute kitten. Attempted conversation becomes an interruption, not for everyone, and it isn't all the time, but it is more than it used to be. So a listener who never looks away is very appealing, but I've started to wonder what that attention actually is. It costs the machine nothing to give, whilst when a person puts the phone down for you, they are choosing you. noticed something else. Whilst AI can be very agreeable, it tends to give me what I ask for depending on how I phrase it. And that's lovely until you want someone to tell you what you don't want to hear. A friend has a view of their own. They remember what you said last year. They might say, I don't think that's true. A priest hands out a penance. Telling a machine usually costs nothing. which may be part of why it's easy and part of why it may not change anything ultimately. This isn't a witch hunt. It's an inquiry. I find it useful and I'm curious about it, but it sent me back to thinking about Narcissus and to the nymph who couldn't answer him. Echo could only give back what she was given and his reflection never answered either. So perhaps the question isn't whether a machine can listen, perhaps... it's whether what comes back is just a reflection or an echo, and whether being heard so easily will still make the effort to be heard by each other. we've always constructed some kind of listener around the fire, before the priest, in the therapist's room, internet, in order to make the unbearable, shameful, frightening or simply complicated parts of ourselves speakable. Perhaps we don't necessarily need the confessor to do anything, for the thing to go. si sapsford (05:18) Today I'm joined by Sarah Lawrence, a writer, curator and museum professional whose career has been devoted to connecting people with stories. For more than 30 years, Sarah has worked with museum and library collections, most notably at Seven Stories, the National Centre for Children's Books, where she helped develop one of the UK's most important collections of children's literature: original illustration and literary archives. Today, She is Publications and Heritage Programmes Manager at Equal Arts, where she developed the dementia-friendly publishing imprint Open-ended books. We'll be talking about archives, illustration, memory, and creativity, and how a lifetime spent preserving stories led to the creation of Buick Tales and Dorothy Wordsworth Grassmere Days, books created with and for people living with dementia. Sarah's books can be found in local bookshops and libraries. Sarah, thank you for joining us today. si sapsford (06:19) So, hi Sarah, thank you for joining me today. must be fascinating to have access all the museum archives. I'm jealous as an artist, I love looking behind the scenes and it must be really inspiring and then you've managed to push this further and bring elements of your to a much wider audience. In-Person (06:20) Hi Sarah, thank you for joining me today. It's nice to see you, Sai. Thank you for having me. It must be fascinating to have access to all the museum archives. I'm jealous as an artist, I love looking behind the scenes and it must be really inspiring. And then you've managed to push this further and bring elements of your to a much wider audience. Yeah, that's right. I mean, that's always been real interest. si sapsford (06:40) Yeah that's right, mean that's always been a real interest of mine actually since I first started working, I've worked with heritage collections all my career and I've been interested in digging around for stories that perhaps haven't been told before or sharing them with people who haven't had a chance to... In-Person (06:43) of mine actually since I first started working. I've worked with heritage collections all my career and been interested in digging around for stories that perhaps haven't been told before or sharing them with people who haven't had a chance to spend as much time with collections as I have I suppose. si sapsford (07:02) spend as much time with collections as I have, suppose. Yeah, I'm always very nosy about collections. It's something as an artist I'm really interested in. so I was just wondering, how did you initially get into being in this role? I did a postgraduate in museum studies many years ago now. And my first job actually was at an old library called the John Lilans Library in Manchester, which is... In-Person (07:05) Yeah, I'm always very nosy about collections. It's something as an artist that I'm really interested in. was just wondering, how did you initially get into being in this role? did a postgraduate in museum studies years ago now. And first job actually was at an old library called the John Rylance Library in Manchester, which is... now part of Manchester University but when it was first built in the 1890s it was a private collection and it has an absolutely fabulous collection of rare books and manuscripts from all over the world and archives and my job then was the exhibition officer so I had more or less free rein to si sapsford (07:27) now part of Manchester University but when it was first built in the 1890s it was a private collection and it has an absolutely fabulous collection of rare books and manuscripts from all over the world and archives and my job then was the exhibition officer so I had more or less free rein to In-Person (07:49) research and pull together si sapsford (07:50) research and pull together In-Person (07:52) fantastic things from across the collection, form them into exhibitions. So that job after qualifying. So was an amazing experience. I mean, they had some of the oldest books in the world. it was extraordinary to be able to just go and find those and dig into them. si sapsford (07:53) things from across the collection and form them into exhibitions. that job qualifying. So was an amazing experience. I mean they had some of the oldest books in the world it was extraordinary to be able to just go and find those and dig into them. was there for about seven years and then after my kids came along I did some freelance work. We moved from the northwest to the northeast, at Adrian's War Museums for a time, which was a different field obviously, Roman archaeology. In-Person (08:10) So was there for about seven years and after my kids came along I did some freelance work. We moved from the North West to the North East. at Adrian's Wall Museums for a time, which was a different field obviously, Roman archaeology. I particularly enjoyed the setting. You know, it's so dramatic up there. si sapsford (08:25) I particularly enjoyed the setting, you know, it's so dramatic up there. In-Person (08:28) But an opportunity came up to move to an organisation called the Centre for the Children's Book which was just being established I joined that organisation to develop their collection si sapsford (08:29) an opportunity came up move to an organisation called the Centre for the Children's Book which was just being established And I joined that organisation to develop their collection. In-Person (08:42) and that si sapsford (08:42) and that became Seven Stories which is now the National Centre for Children's Books in Newcastle and I worked there for about 18 years developing the collection so that involved working with authors and illustrators who create books for children that was an amazing opportunity really to find out In-Person (08:43) became Seven Stories, which is now the National Centre for Children's Books in Newcastle. And I worked there, I was there for about 18 years developing the collection. So that involved working with authors and illustrators who create books for children. that was an amazing opportunity really to find out how children's books were made, how... si sapsford (09:02) how children's books were made, how authors shape their ideas into stories, how editing works. amazing what you can find out just from going through somebody's archive. You see the different stages in the creative process, the reworking. I think In-Person (09:05) authors shape their ideas into stories, how editing works. amazing what you can find out just from going through somebody's archive. You see the different stages in the creative process, the reworking. I think people don't realize, for example, just how many si sapsford (09:18) don't realise, for example, just how many In-Person (09:21) iterations go into the creation of a picture book for children. They're deceptively simple things, in reality, they're very often, you know, it might be the result of many, many different si sapsford (09:22) iterations go into the creation of a picture book for children. They're deceptively simple things, in reality, they're very often, you know, might be the result of many, many In-Person (09:35) and redraftings and then all the interactions between writer of the text and the illustrator of the pictures. It's extraordinary. si sapsford (09:34) Draftings and redraftings and then all the interactions between writer of the text and the illustrator of the pictures. It's In-Person (09:43) find out just how much is involved in creating a really good picture book that bears retelling and telling again, really enjoyed looking at si sapsford (09:42) When find out just how much is involved in creating a really good picture book that bears retelling and telling again, I really enjoyed looking at In-Person (09:53) drawn from the archive. I find that really fascinating. And you've got some lovely images with that. And the text is si sapsford (09:53) drawn from the archive. I found it really fascinating. And you've got some lovely images with that. the text is quite restrained as well. And so it's quite accessible. for me, I've just really enjoyed seeing the images in conjunction with that process. And there was a particular letter that I enjoyed. In-Person (10:01) quite restrained as well, Yes. It's quite accessible, me I've just really the images in conjunction with that process and there was a particular letter I enjoyed. Faith Jack's writing to yes, Faith Jack's si sapsford (10:13) Faith Jack's writing to Roald Dahl. In-Person (10:17) Roald Dahl, That book si sapsford (10:18) that book grew out of the work that I'd done at Seven Stories, Faith Jakes, illustrated Roald Dahl's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, I she was the first UK illustrator of that book. In-Person (10:19) grew out of the work that I'd done at Seven Stories, Faith Jakes illustrated Roald Dahl's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. think she was the first UK illustrator of that book. But her original artwork was lost. si sapsford (10:30) but her original artwork was lost. it's really affected her actually decades, experience of having her artwork lost. I think it was being sent republishing and went astray. In-Person (10:33) it's really affected her actually for decades, that experience of having her artwork lost. I think it was being sent republishing and went astray. And of course, si sapsford (10:44) and of course if an illustrator loses their original artwork then unless they're paid to redraw it, in those days illustrators got paid very very badly and it was often, piecework so they didn't get royalties in the way that an author did so they had a rough time actually. In-Person (10:46) if an illustrator loses their original artwork, then unless they're paid to redraw it, in those days, illustrators got paid very, very badly. And it was often, piecework. So they didn't get royalties in the way that an author did. So they had a rough time, actually. But si sapsford (11:03) But was an illustrator who researched things very thoroughly and she wanted to get all the details right. she wanted to know exactly what the Oompa Loompa should look like. Yeah, and that letter really sort of gives you an insight into that, it's not just, I'm going to do a quick sketch. It's a lot of thought and you have to have read the book and understood and not all of the illustrators talk directly to In-Person (11:04) She was an illustrator who researched things very thoroughly and she wanted to get all the details right. she wanted to know exactly what the Oompa Loompa should look like. Yeah, and that lets really do an insight into that, It's not just, I'm going to do a quick sketch. No. It's a lot of thought and you have to have read the book and understood and not all of the illustrators talk directly to si sapsford (11:27) the writers did they? No, it's actually quite often In-Person (11:27) the writers. no, actually quite often. si sapsford (11:30) they may never even meet. People imagine that the author and illustrator of a picture book are going to be best friends, but in actual fact, very often, know, they're kept quite separate. think publishers do that deliberately very often because... In-Person (11:30) may never even meet. People imagine that the author and illustrator of a picture book are going to be best friends but in actual fact very often they're kept quite separate. think publishers do that deliberately very often because the editor, to be able to shape how the looks si sapsford (11:44) the editor to be able to shape how the looks So very publisher will commission the illustrator and the author completely separately. In-Person (11:48) So very often publisher will commission the illustrator and the author completely separately. the other thing I really enjoyed si sapsford (11:54) And the other thing I really enjoyed were The drawings of Jan Omerod and that sort of strip element. I just loved how the size of the square. In-Person (11:56) yeah. The drawings of Jan Omorod and that sort of comic element. I just loved how the size of the square si sapsford (12:03) changed the speed of reading. So the going to bed time was a much bigger square than the busy day drawings when things were happening one after the other. I found myself quite interested in time. And I thought that was a really good way of dealing with time. And it's very filmic, Yeah, no, you're right. It's that sort of compositional, structure of In-Person (12:03) changed the speed of reading. The to bed time was a much bigger square than the busy day during which things were happening one after the other. find myself quite interested in time and I thought that was a really good way of dealing with time. It's very filmic Yeah, no, you're right. it? It's that sort of compositional, structure storytelling, suppose, that visual storytelling, because there's no words in that book, the Sunshine book, it's all done in pictures. But it's, the sizing and the pacing of the images, you'd think it would just be a very quick page turn, but si sapsford (12:22) storytelling, suppose, that visual storytelling, because there's no words in that book, the Sunshine Book, it's all done in pictures, but it's, the sizing and the pacing of the images, you'd think it would just be a very quick page turn, but... In-Person (12:36) actually, there's so much to follow in the sequencing. si sapsford (12:36) Actually there's so much to follow in the sequencing. And of that sequencing a young child that a whole business of learning read an image something that's really important in the children's book. You're thinking about how... In-Person (12:39) And of course that sequencing for a young child that sort of whole business of learning to read an image something that's really important in the children's book. You're thinking about how children are developing those visual literacy skills, even just the sort of simple things of learning to read a picture from left to right or, how all of that works. si sapsford (12:51) children are developing those visual literacy skills, even just the sort of simple things of learning to read a picture from left to right, or how all of that works. So the fact that there aren't words in that book doesn't mean to say that it doesn't contribute to learning about reading and navigating text. In-Person (13:00) So the fact that there aren't words in that book doesn't mean to say that it doesn't contribute to learning about reading and navigating text going forward. I find it really fascinating. si sapsford (13:10) going forward, I find it really In-Person (13:13) it's interesting, isn't it? So was it quite? si sapsford (13:13) it's interesting isn't it? So was it quite accidental when you joined Seven Stories that you got into children's literature and that sort of side of In-Person (13:16) Accidental when you joined Seven Stories that you got into children's literature and that sort of side of... Definitely si sapsford (13:22) I definitely In-Person (13:23) I hadn't... si sapsford (13:23) I hadn't made a study of children's books previously, but obviously my experience in first job at the Rhineland's Library, interest in books and bookmaking was there, I think, from early on. sometimes you can't see the connections until you look back, but I can. I do now. I see it that way now. In-Person (13:24) made a study of children's books previously but obviously my experience in my first job at the Rylans Library that interest in books and bookmaking was there I think from early on and sometimes you can't see the connections until you look back but I can you know I do now I do see it that way now yeah. si sapsford (13:45) And it's interesting for adults, so many of the books now have switched to online but children's books still need to be tangible and held in the hand. I think that... In-Person (13:49) online but children's books still need to be tangible and held in the hand. I think that the tactile elements books, si sapsford (13:56) the tactile elements of In-Person (13:59) reading isn't just a cognitive process, for developing readers in the work that I'm doing now with readers who live with dementia, si sapsford (14:00) isn't just a cognitive process, for developing readers and in the work that I'm doing now with readers who live with dementia, It's not just about words on the page and the easiest way to get those into your head. In-Person (14:06) It's not just about words on the page and the easiest way to get those into your head. I think it is a different experience, it's a different way of engaging with the written word and the book format. And people forget as well that books didn't always exist, a book is that codex form, that sort of rectangular shape with a cover and pages that you turn, of that format, si sapsford (14:12) I think it is a different experience, a different way of engaging with the written word and the book format. And people forget as well that books didn't always exist, a book is that codex form, that sort of rectangular shape with a cover and pages that you turn, invention of that format. In-Person (14:32) it's very old now, it's a couple of thousand years old. si sapsford (14:32) I mean it's very old now, it's couple of thousand years old. It's very tried and tested, and it's something I think, it works for human beings actually. I think you're right. And I think In-Person (14:35) It's very tried and tested, and it's something that I think, works for human beings, actually. You're right. And I think si sapsford (14:42) In those early years, it's very much a shared experience where you're sitting down, you're with a parent and they're reading and pointing and asking questions. And I think a lot of the very young reader In-Person (14:42) in those early years, it's very much a shared experience where you're sitting down, you're with a parent and they're and pointing and asking questions. And I think a lot of the very young readers... si sapsford (14:54) children's books have those sort of small sections so that, you know, the mother can say, what do you think about this? And you see that in the development of those books. And I was wondering how much that influenced the construction of your later books. In-Person (14:54) books have those sort small sections so that you know the mother can say what do think about this and you see that in the development of those books. Yes. And I was wondering how much that influenced the construction of your later books. So the later books, si sapsford (15:11) the new books that I've been working on recently, I now work for In-Person (15:11) the new books that I've been working on recently, I now work for si sapsford (15:15) a creative ageing charity called Equal Arts which is all about supporting older people and people living with dementia to have quality of life through creativity. So move from... In-Person (15:15) a creative aging charity called Equal Arts, all about supporting older people and people living with dementia have of life through creativity. So moved from si sapsford (15:28) one end of the spectrum to the other I suppose and we've established a In-Person (15:28) one end of the spectrum to the other, I suppose. And we've established a si sapsford (15:33) dementia friendly publishing imprint called Open Ended Books and that was a response to the fact that there very very few books around that are designed for people who have a dementia to read for pleasure. In-Person (15:33) dementia friendly publishing imprint called Open-ended Books and that was a response to the fact that there very very few books around that are designed for people who have a dementia to read for pleasure. There's lots of information about dementia out there, know, there's lots of books that tell you about the symptoms of dementia and there's memoirs and things like that but there's not, much that is si sapsford (15:48) There's lots of information about dementia out there, there's lots of books that tell you about the symptoms of dementia, there's memoirs and things like that. But much that is written for people living with dementia to pick up and read for themselves or with a partner. So that's what we're working into. And so In-Person (16:00) written for people living with dementia to pick up and read for themselves or with a partner. So that's what we're working into. And so, I guess, that some of the decision making around the shape, the format, the tactile qualities of the book those have been informed a little bit by the si sapsford (16:08) I guess that some of the decision making around shape, the format, tactile qualities of the book those had been informed a little bit by In-Person (16:17) sort of experience and awareness of the kind of decision making, the design decisions that picture book creator might be making. I did have that in my mind when I was working through si sapsford (16:17) sort of experience and awareness of the kind of decision making, the design decisions that a picture book creator might be making. I did have that in my mind when I was working through... In-Person (16:31) first of the dementia friendly books, when we were trying to work out what size it should be, what shape the pages, you whether it would be portrait or landscape or, you know, what the si sapsford (16:30) the first of the dementia friendly books when we were trying to work out what size it should be, what shape the pages, whether it would be portrait or landscape or what the In-Person (16:43) paper would feel like, all of those kind of things. I knew that those were decisions that don't happen by accident, that they need to be thought about. si sapsford (16:43) paper would feel like, all of those kind of things. I knew that those were decisions that don't happen by accident that they need to be thought about. In-Person (16:54) so I suppose the general kind of, the landscape of picture book making informed some of that thinking. But the actual decisions that we took were very much based on the needs of people living with dementia. si sapsford (16:54) So I suppose the kind of landscape of picture book making informed some of that thinking. But the actual decisions that we took were very much based on the needs of people living with dementia, not on the needs of children. And there is, I suppose you could say there's some crossover in the sense of... In-Person (17:07) not on the needs of children. And there is, I suppose you could say there's some crossover in the sense of, you know, you have a, I suppose a restricted number of words on the page, but it's for different reasons. And, you know, there's, there are very different considerations that come into play when you... si sapsford (17:13) you know you have a suppose a restricted number of words on the page but it's for different reasons and you know there's there are very different considerations that come into play when you're writing for people living with dementia. I really enjoyed reading both myself so very informative In-Person (17:26) writing for people living with dementia. I really reading both myself. very informative si sapsford (17:35) these little sections and then the watercolours all these sort of fragments from a collection. I really enjoyed that and it does jog your memory back In-Person (17:35) these little sections and then the watercolours all these sort of fragments from a collection. I really enjoyed that and it does jog your memory back to si sapsford (17:43) particularly for me Wordsworth because I'm from the north of England and near the Lake District anyway. I think people In-Person (17:43) particularly for me, Wordsworth, because I'm from the north of England and near the Lake District anyway. but I think, people are... si sapsford (17:50) will respond those images and those In-Person (17:50) know, will respond to those images and those texts. And it's quite satisfying to, just read or look at just one element and then you can spend time on that before going on to the next element and, you know, possibly putting it down and then going back to it. I really felt like there was something for anyone from any generation the book. thank you. si sapsford (17:53) texts and it's sort of quite satisfying to just read look at just one element and then and you can spend time on that before going on to the next element and you know possibly putting it down and then going back to it and I really felt like there was something for anyone from any generation in the book really. thank you In-Person (18:13) it was designed that it could work for somebody to read on their own or another person who might be younger definitely that sort of shared reading model important. But I suppose the kind of things that we had to think about were that, obviously there's lots and lots of different types of dementia and si sapsford (18:13) think it was designed that it could work for somebody to read on their own or another person who might be younger. Definitely that shared reading model important. But I suppose the kind of things that we had to think about were that there's lots and lots of different types of dementia and In-Person (18:34) it's not fail safe, and obviously it's progressive in all dementias are progressive. So, so what works with somebody in early stages and not necessarily going to work as the dementia advances. But, one of the threads that is pretty common across all dementias is that loss of short term memory. And, and therefore that idea that. si sapsford (18:34) it's not fail safe, and obviously it's progressive, you all dementias are progressive, so what works for somebody in early stages is not necessarily going to work as the dementia advances, but one of the threads that is pretty common across all dementias is that loss of short-term memory and therefore that idea that when you... In-Person (18:54) When you reading a book, it can be very difficult for somebody to follow narrative over, number of pages. it's easy to lose the thread, to forget who the characters are or what's happened on the previous page. Sometimes that kind of very act of turning the page, literally lifting the page and si sapsford (18:55) reading a book it can be very difficult for somebody to follow narrative over, number of pages. easy to lose a thread, forget who the characters are or what's happened on the previous page. Sometimes that kind of very act of turning the page, literally lifting the page and In-Person (19:17) putting it down si sapsford (19:17) putting it down. In-Person (19:18) almost acts as a bit of a wipe clean. You can't remember what happened on the page before. So we designed the books so that on there's a kind of story on each two page spread so that you open the book and you've got a si sapsford (19:18) almost acts as a bit of a wipe clean. You can't remember what happened on the page before. So we designed the books so on there's a kind of story on each two page spread so that you open the book and you've got a little... In-Person (19:36) little satisfying reading experience there, sort sort of capsule reading experience on that. si sapsford (19:36) a little satisfying reading experience there, sort sort of capsule reading experience on that In-Person (19:43) double page spread and you might just read a couple of pages and then put it down si sapsford (19:43) double page spread. And you might just read a couple of pages then put it down. In-Person (19:49) you might read a couple of pages and then think that reminds me of something else and let's look at that and bring something else to it. So it was designed that you could read the whole thing or you could si sapsford (19:49) you might read a couple of pages and then think that reminds me of something else and let's look at that and bring something else to it. So it was designed that you could read the whole thing or you could just do a couple of pages at a time you wouldn't lose out either way. In-Person (20:03) just do a couple of pages at a time and it you wouldn't lose out either way so both books that we've done so far Buick Tales and Dorothy Wordsworth Grassmute are both narrative non-fiction so I had to learn that term I didn't know what it was so narrative non-fiction and I think in a way it's very si sapsford (20:09) So both books that we've done so far, Buick Tales and Dorothy Wordsworth-Crasnewty, they're both narrative non-fiction. I had to learn that term, didn't know what it was. Narrative non-fiction. I think in a way it's very, for me as a curator, it's a bit like... In-Person (20:26) For me as a curator, it's a bit what I would have done previously, writing text for exhibitions where you're kind of drawing material from an archive and pulling it together into a story, into a shape. si sapsford (20:29) what I would have done previously writing text for exhibitions where you're kind of drawing on material from an archive, pulling it together into a story, into a shape. In-Person (20:39) But with a little bit on each page and a mix of illustration and text. And then what we've also added in a little si sapsford (20:39) but with a little bit on each page and a mix of illustration and text and then what we've also added in a little questions not not on every page but there's a open-ended sort of story what we call conversations tata so something an open-ended question is one that doesn't have a fixed answer that invites In-Person (20:48) Questions not not on every page, but there's a open-ended sort of story what we call conversation starter So something an open quite ended question is one that doesn't have a fixed answer that invites si sapsford (21:04) the reader to use their imagination prompts curiosity and that's really important when you're In-Person (21:04) the reader to use their imagination and prompts curiosity and that's really important when you're si sapsford (21:12) working with people with dementia the loss of memory doesn't affect the imagination you can still be creative you can still imagine things and it doesn't matter that you can't remember what happened In-Person (21:12) working with people with dementia because their loss of memory doesn't affect the imagination, you can still be creative, you can still imagine things and it doesn't matter that you can't remember what happened an hour ago or last minute, you know. the other thing as well is that people living with dementia still enjoy that experience of learning something new. si sapsford (21:26) an hour ago or last minute, you know. the other thing as well is that people living with dementia still enjoy that experience of learning something new. So these books are not designed, I mean it's nice if people see a connection, as you said, you you lived in the north of England and so you could relate to the Dorothy book because perhaps the pictures reminded you where you grew up In-Person (21:37) So these books are not designed, I mean it's nice if people see a connection, as you said, you you lived in the north of England and so you could relate to the Dorothy book because perhaps the pictures reminded you of where you grew up a lot of people will be familiar with the Daffodils poem obviously, but it's not designed as reminiscence, si sapsford (21:51) lot of people will be familiar with the Daffodils poem, But it's not designed as reminiscence. something that should be accessible to anybody, even if they've never heard of Wordsworth or Buick, for that matter. And In-Person (22:00) It's something that should be accessible to anybody, even if they've never heard of Wordsworth or Buick for that matter. And si sapsford (22:08) It's presenting you with something that perhaps you haven't considered before that sparks your curiosity and gives you something new to think about and talk about. In-Person (22:09) presenting you with something that perhaps you haven't considered before that sparks your curiosity and gives you something new to think about and talk about. So that's the kind of, I suppose that's the philosophy. si sapsford (22:19) That's the kind of, I suppose that's the philosophy behind it. and for me it also provoked questions. So, one page in particular when Wordsworth read the notebooks and took them back to Ullswater and obviously then you get the Daffodils poem, In-Person (22:22) behind it. and for me it also provoked questions. one page in particular, when Wordsworth read the notebooks and took them back to Oldswater and obviously then you get to Daffodil's poem. I was really curious to know what she'd actually written and how much of his poem really did draw from that and obviously that's not in the book. si sapsford (22:34) I was really curious to know what she'd actually written and how much of his poem really did draw from that. And obviously that's not in the book and it's sort of another detail, but that's something, I was left thinking about. And then in your book, talks about her as a writer, as well as walking In-Person (22:43) another detail but that's something I was left thinking about. your book talks about her as a writer as well as working si sapsford (22:50) in the hills of the Lake District. And it does make me think about women's opportunities in those days. And I thought, well, In-Person (22:50) the hills of the Lake District. And it does make me think about women's opportunities in those days. And I thought, she probably felt quite privileged. She lived with her brother and was able to do certain things she might not have been able to do if she lived in another household. And so in that respect, she had a privileged life and she was having conversations that she enjoyed and engaged in. how realistic would it have been for her to say, well, actually, I'm a poet as well. si sapsford (22:57) she probably felt quite privileged. She lived with her brother and was able to, do certain things she might not have been able to do if she, lived in another household. and so in that respect, she had a privileged life and she was having conversations that she enjoyed and engaged in. But how realistic would it have been for her to say, well, actually I'm a poet as well, or In-Person (23:17) I'm the writer. it's that kind of, si sapsford (23:17) I'm a writer, it's that kind of, In-Person (23:19) just grateful that she's allowed to be in this sort of environment. We see this with scientists of that generation. Absolutely, we do, don't we? I mean, I think, well, I think it's a story of women's lives in general in that period. It's very, very hard to be professional, I suppose, in any way that we would recognise now. But I think... si sapsford (23:19) just grateful that she's allowed to be in this sort of environment. We see this with scientists of that generation as well, don't we? I mean, I think, well, I think it's the story of women's lives in general in period. It's very, very hard to be professional, I suppose, in any way that we would recognise it, now. But I think... In-Person (23:39) Dorothy did have some freedom. fact that she never married is not, I don't think necessarily she saw that as a hardship I'm not an expert really, think in some ways that was a liberation. If you were married and had to have kids you're dicing with death all the time. So many women died in childbirth, didn't they? And si sapsford (23:39) Dorothy did have some freedom. The fact that she never married is I don't think necessarily, she saw that as a hardship I'm not an expert really, think in some ways that was a liberation. If you were married and had to kids the time. So many women died in childbirth, didn't they? In-Person (23:59) all became ill. And so actually if you had, I mean, she didn't have independent means, she did rely on her brother, but you know, he did support her and so she didn't want for anything that she needed. So I think, si sapsford (24:01) So actually if you had, I she didn't have independent means, she did rely on her brother. But, you know, he did support her and so she didn't want for anything that she needed. So I think, there was some element of... In-Person (24:16) there was some element of her being free, free to walk, free to imagine. Free to have those friends that she was Yeah, exactly. yeah, si sapsford (24:19) being free, free to imagine. And free to have those friends that she seemed to write a lot to as well. In-Person (24:26) they constant interactions with other literary and artistic circle of friends. But I think she probably propped them up as well. I think she propped her brother up and Coleridge and... si sapsford (24:27) interactions with other literary and artistic circle of friends. I think she probably propped them up as well. she propped her brother up and Coleridge. I she was a pretty remarkable person really. Yes, it must have been fascinating being at that collection and having the time and... In-Person (24:39) I think she was a pretty remarkable person really. Yes, it must have been fascinating being at that collection and having the time just to really immerse yourself in that and then how do you then decide what goes in the book? In the book? Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? I was lucky the Wordsworth Trust were brilliant. si sapsford (24:47) just to really immerse yourself in that and then sort of how do you then decide what goes in the book? In the book? Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? I was lucky. the Wordsworth Trust were really in I spent the best part of a week in their research room and they just got out loads of things for to look at and, In-Person (24:58) I spent the best part of a week research room and they just got out loads of things for to look at and helped with advising possible storylines it did take a while to si sapsford (25:05) helped with storylines And it did take a while In-Person (25:10) turn it into a shape. The way we've sort of approached it, with both books, can see now how we're getting si sapsford (25:10) turn it into a The way we've sort of approached with both books, can see now how we're getting... In-Person (25:19) a sort of, not quite a formula, but it is about finding a thread that is true, has integrity, that's true to the archive that you're working with and the si sapsford (25:19) sort of not quite a formula but it is about finding a thread that is true, that has integrity, is true to the archive that you're working with and the In-Person (25:29) the person's life story, that provides kind of jumping off points that a wider or appeal. si sapsford (25:30) life story but that also provides kind of jumping off points that have a wider interest or appeal. In-Person (25:38) I suppose creating that connection, a human connection with the person. if, Dorothy Wordsworth was walking on the hills, si sapsford (25:38) I suppose creating that connection, a human connection with the person. if Dorothy Wordsworth was walking on the hills, you can see how you could read about that and think about your own, places you've enjoyed walking In-Person (25:46) You can see how you could read about that and think about your own you've enjoyed walking si sapsford (25:53) look at old maps place and be reminded of walks or plan walks for the future. not all about living in the past just because you have dementia, you still want to do new things and try new things. In-Person (25:53) look at old maps place and be reminded of walks or plan walks for the future. not all about living in the past just because you have dementia. You still want to do new things and try new things. if reading... si sapsford (26:06) If reading a book can prompt you to do something like that or go and grow things in your garden. not necessarily an end in itself. It's about reading as part of your life, I suppose. Yeah. In-Person (26:07) book can prompt you to do something like that or go grow things in your garden. not necessarily an end in itself, it's about reading as part of your life, I suppose. I curated an exhibition Equal Arts a couple of years ago that was a creative response to the Thomas Buick archive at Newcastle City Library and that si sapsford (26:19) I curated an exhibition with Equal Arts a couple of years ago that was a creative response to the Thomas Buick archive at Newcastle City Library and that was developed in parallel with developing the first dementia friendly book. In-Person (26:31) was developed in parallel with developing the first dementia friendly book. And as part of that project, we created opportunities for people to explore the Buick collections in a lot of depth. si sapsford (26:36) And as part of that project, we created opportunities for people to explore the Buick collections in a lot of depth, finding out about Buick's life. In-Person (26:47) finding out about Buick's life, understanding his creative process. They've got a lot of the original engraving blocks in the collection at Newcastle City Library, which are like practically miraculous objects because worked at such a miniature scale, it's almost unbelievable. And they have his original toolbox and everything in the library's collection. si sapsford (26:49) understanding his creative process. They've got a lot of the original engraving blocks in the collection at Newcastle City Library which are like practically miraculous objects because worked at such a miniature scale it's almost unbelievable and they have his original toolbox and everything in the library's collection. In-Person (27:09) So... si sapsford (27:09) So people respond really, really powerfully to that opportunity immersed in the archive. has had the most extraordinary effect on people. Is this people with dementia or just people generally? Older people and people living with dementia. So it's a mix. A lot of our groups are mixed. In-Person (27:10) people respond really, really powerfully to that opportunity immersed in the archive has had the most extraordinary effect on people. was older people and people living with dementia. So it was a mix. A lot of our groups are mixed. so it might be people living with dementia and carers or people with all sorts of other later life health conditions But the archive is also full of letters and other types of ephemera connected with Buick's working life. And it resulted in people si sapsford (27:28) so it might be people living with dementia and carers with all sorts of other later life health conditions But the archive is also full of letters and other types of ephemera connected with Buick's working life and it resulted in people writing poems and short stories and all kinds of other types of creative response. So we sort of shaped that into an exhibition that told a bit of a story about Buick his work in Newcastle. we displayed people's creative work, their prints, their stories alongside original. In-Person (27:46) writing poems and short stories and all kinds of other types of creative response. So we sort of shaped that into an exhibition that told a bit of a story about Buick his work in Newcastle. And we displayed people's creative work, their prints, their stories alongside the original si sapsford (28:05) artwork, the Buick In-Person (28:05) artwork, the Buick. si sapsford (28:06) prints I was really able to draw on that experience shaping content for the Buick Tales book because it made see how powerful In-Person (28:06) prints I was really able to draw on that experience shaping content for the Buick Tales book because me see how powerful that si sapsford (28:19) that immersion, that In-Person (28:19) immersion, that... si sapsford (28:20) direct engagement with the archive could be. very often are treated as a resource only really suitable for researchers. got to have an academic degree to be able to know what to consult and make special arrangements to go and visit So it's something that often In-Person (28:20) direct engagement with the archive could be. very often are treated as a resource only really suitable for researchers. got to have academic degree to be able to know what to consult and make special arrangements to go and visit So it's something that often si sapsford (28:40) people don't get a chance to do. And I've always thought that was a great shame because when put people in collections together, can be such a powerful experience you take away the barriers. Absolutely. I used to take students to the V &A print collection and anyone can book. In-Person (28:40) people don't get a chance to do. And I've always thought that was a great shame because when put people in collections together, can be such a powerful experience, when you take away the barriers. Absolutely. teaching, you know, I used to take students to the V &A print collection and anyone can book. si sapsford (28:59) to go in and view prints it's the same with most of the museums and I don't think that people know. you're right, it often feels too difficult In-Person (28:59) to go in and view prints it's the same with most of the museums and I don't think No, I don't I think you're right, think often feels too difficult I've been doing a lot of work this year at Equal Arts with Newcastle City Library. We've been running a project called Reading with Dementia, which is, it's sort of in parallel with the books, but si sapsford (29:09) I've done, been doing a lot of work this year at Wet Equal Arts with Newcastle City Library. We've been running a project called Reading with Dementia which is, it's sort of in parallel with the books but... In-Person (29:21) we've been setting up reading groups specifically for people. si sapsford (29:21) We've been setting up reading groups specifically for people with dementia and supporters. And we've used the archives extensively in that project. So people are coming along to reading groups In-Person (29:25) with Dementia and supporters. And we've used the archives extensively in that project. So people are coming along to reading groups with a selection of material from the archives. So I'm choosing material, bringing it to the sessions and people... si sapsford (29:35) with a selection of material from the archives. So I'm choosing material, bringing it to the sessions and people will, it's all on a theme, so each session will have a theme. In-Person (29:42) will, it's all on a theme, so each session will have a theme and they'll look at the stuff from the collections but also other, you know, poetry and other books that relate to that same theme. So it's kind of mixing it up, I suppose, mixing up the reading experience. But I think, si sapsford (29:47) and they'll look at the stuff from the collections but also other poetry and other books that relate to that same theme. So it's kind of mixing it up, I suppose mixing up the reading experience. I to me part of the importance of making the collections available in that way is that In-Person (30:04) To me, part of the importance of making the collections available in that way is that si sapsford (30:09) it acts as a motivation to read. doesn't matter if people read a bit and then don't remember it afterwards. It's the curiosity that it provokes. think if reading is difficult for you because you've got to mention it's not just about number of words on a or remembering the plot, it's also In-Person (30:09) it acts as a motivation to read. It doesn't matter if people read a bit and then don't remember it afterwards. It's the curiosity that it provokes. think if reading's difficult for you because you've got dementia and it's not just about the number of words on a page or remembering the plot, it's also... si sapsford (30:27) just navigating a text. In-Person (30:27) just navigating a text. si sapsford (30:30) If that's difficult for you, if it comes with a lot of cognitive load, it's got to be worthwhile, it's got to be something that lifts your spirit, makes you feel And it's quite extraordinary how making the archives available In-Person (30:30) If that's difficult for you, if it comes with a lot of cognitive load, it's got to be worthwhile, it's got to be something that lifts your spirit, that makes you feel And it's quite extraordinary how making the archives available can... si sapsford (30:47) can have that impact on people. In-Person (30:47) can have that impact on people. And then there's the whole sort of tactile and sensory element of it as well, know, turning the pages of an old book si sapsford (30:49) And then there's the whole sort of tactile and sensory element of it as well, know, turning the pages of an old book In-Person (30:57) at things like theatre programmes and stuff, you know, and finding old advertisements for businesses in Newcastle in the 1890s or whatever. And si sapsford (30:57) at things like theatre programmes and stuff, know, old advertisements for businesses in Newcastle in the 1890s or whatever, and In-Person (31:08) It's quite extraordinary what the little things that catch your eye and then create excitement somehow. si sapsford (31:09) quite extraordinary, the little things that catch your eye and then create excitement somehow. In-Person (31:15) So reading can be, all kinds of things. It doesn't have to be about getting from the beginning to the end of a book. Absolutely. I I find myself interested in graphic images that go with the book. si sapsford (31:15) So reading can be, all kinds of things. It doesn't have to be about getting from the beginning to the end of a book. Absolutely. I mean, I find myself interested in graphic images that go with the books In-Person (31:31) and how illustrations have changed different runs over different years. si sapsford (31:31) and how illustrations have changed, you for different print runs over different years. In-Person (31:38) Recently somebody gave me a gift, a poster and it was very much sort of a 1920s typography in reds and blacks. I just loved that and made me see... si sapsford (31:37) Recently, somebody gave me a gift, it was a poster and it was very much sort of a 1920s typography in reds and blacks. I just loved that and made me the advertising that's in front of me right now and look at that again. And it's funny how one thing can trigger you looking at something else in a different way, isn't it? In-Person (31:49) the advertising that's in front of me right now and look at that again. And it's funny how one thing can trigger you looking at something else in a different way, isn't it? yeah, definitely I And it's stuff that we sometimes take for granted, we don't think necessarily about. si sapsford (32:01) And it's stuff that we sometimes take for granted. don't think necessarily about what a massive difference the style of typography and page layout has. But that's actually really, really important. When we've been designing the books, I work with book designer actually lives in Reading. In-Person (32:06) what a massive difference the style of typography and page layout has but that's actually really really important. I mean when we've been designing the books I work with a book designer actually lives in Reading si sapsford (32:20) and she specialises in information design she's been absolutely brilliant to work She's In-Person (32:20) and she specialises in kind of information design and she's been absolutely brilliant to work with. She's so... si sapsford (32:28) patient also very very interested in how we make the books accessible people and she's been prepared to try lots and lots of different In-Person (32:28) very patient she's also very, very interested in how we make the books accessible to people. And so she's been prepared to try lots and lots of different si sapsford (32:38) sizes of font format so on. I think every single aspect In-Person (32:38) sizes of font and format and so on. So I think every single aspect. si sapsford (32:45) how a book is laid out, how the, you know, it's about the typography, it's about the number of words, it's about the length of the lines as well because you've got a very very wide line your eye gets to the hand end In-Person (32:44) of how a book is laid out, how the, you know, it's about the typography, it's about the number of words, it's about the length of the lines as well, because if you've got a very, very wide line, when your eye gets to the right end and then is trying to find the next line underneath, the wider the line is, the harder it is to track back to the left and find the next line if you... si sapsford (33:00) and then it's trying to find the next line underneath the wider the line is the harder it is to track back to the left and find the next line if you know what I So you're thinking about all of that all the time thinking about how do you anticipate where those little stumbling blocks might be how do you think about In-Person (33:10) Get what I mean? So, you're thinking about all of that all the time, thinking about do you anticipate those little stumbling blocks might be? How do you think about si sapsford (33:21) length of a phrase so it's not broken up across, at the end of a line. So things flow, I suppose, In-Person (33:21) the length of a phrase so that it's not broken up across, at the end of So things flow, I suppose. si sapsford (33:29) not, so that people are not struggling a complicated concept In-Person (33:29) so that people are not struggling with a complicated concept that's broken up over several lines and therefore, it gets hard to follow. You want to try and keep it very simple. But it's also really, really important that these are books for adults and not for children. So. si sapsford (33:34) that's broken up over several lines and therefore gets hard to follow. You want to try and keep it very simple. But it's also really, really important these are books for adults and for children. In-Person (33:47) I don't mind if children read them and especially if if they read them somebody who's got dementia, that's absolutely brilliant. Because si sapsford (33:47) mean, I don't mind if children read them and especially if say, read them somebody who's got dementia, that's absolutely brilliant because In-Person (33:53) strengthening relationships then if you've got something to do together. But these books are designed for the adults, for people who've got a lifetime of experience and learning. So we don't necessarily take out all the... si sapsford (33:53) strengthening relationships then if you've got something to do together. But these books are designed for the adults, for people who've got a lifetime of experience and learning. So we don't necessarily take out all the, what you might call difficult words. I think it's important that there's always a little level of challenge in there or something that respects the fact that... In-Person (34:07) what you might call difficult words. I think it's important that there's always a little level of challenge in there or something that respects the fact that somebody might have been a reader for 80 years and so they don't want to be treated like a child. striking the right balance, I suppose, between simplicity and not being patronizing. that needs to cut through. si sapsford (34:16) somebody might have been a reader for 80 years and so they don't want to be treated like a child. striking the right balance I suppose between simplicity and not being That needs to cut through the whole kind of concept and content and also the layout as well. So it's important they don't look like Lady Bird books for example. In-Person (34:28) the whole kind of concept and content and also the layout as well. So it's important they don't look like Ladybird books for example. si sapsford (34:37) I guess you've learned so much through publishing your own book and it must give you a different appreciation. You if you were to look back at... In-Person (34:38) I you've learnt so much through publishing your own book and it must give you a different appreciation if you were to look back drawing from the archive and you must have learnt a lot there but also you know it's sort of like yes typography that's a question that needs answering the size of the typography where things are placed on the page yes exactly and then I'm led into like poetry as opposed to a paragraph si sapsford (34:45) drawing from the archive and you must have learnt a lot there. But also, know, it's sort of like, yes, typography, that's a question that needs answering the size of the typography where things are placed on the page. And then I'm led into like poetry as opposed to a paragraph. How do we respond to poetry? In-Person (35:04) respond to poetry si sapsford (35:06) and that we think differently when we read poetry. And I'm wondering, is there evidence for that within the projects that you're leading? We've used a lot of poetry in the Reading with Dementia project you know, all kinds, not just In-Person (35:06) that we think differently when we read poetry. I'm wondering, is there evidence for that within the projects that you're reading? We've used a lot of poetry in the Reading with Dementia project and all kinds, not just... si sapsford (35:19) stuff that people would have read at school, because that's often a kind of default. People assume that you should just go back to stuff that was learnt by rote in the schoolroom. In-Person (35:19) stuff that people would have read at school because that's often a kind of default people assume that you should just go back to stuff that was learnt by rote in the school room. si sapsford (35:27) Actually we've used a lot of contemporary poetry as well and that works just as well. think it's when what you're looking for is that human connection that people can make. I think obviously with poetry it's short format so it's In-Person (35:27) Actually we've used a lot of contemporary poetry as well and that works just as well. think it's when you're what you're looking for is that human connection that people can make. I think obviously with poetry it's short format so it's si sapsford (35:42) you're not asking people to carry a memory over several pages. In-Person (35:42) you're not asking people to carry memory over several pages. Doesn't mean to say it isn't complex at all by any means. But what we've found with the project certainly is that with the right encouragement people si sapsford (35:46) doesn't mean to say it isn't complex at all by any means. But what we've found with the project certainly is that with the right encouragement people come up with some quite sophisticated readings actually of poems. It's certainly isn't the case that people with dementia are not capable of engaging with. In-Person (35:58) come up with some quite sophisticated readings actually of poems. It's not, it certainly isn't the case that people with dementia are not capable of engaging with si sapsford (36:07) more difficult abstract ideas, it's, shouldn't shy away from that. think obviously not all poetry is gonna be equally accessible to people. In-Person (36:07) more difficult abstract ideas. It's, we shouldn't shy away from that. I think obviously not all poetry is going to be equally accessible to people. si sapsford (36:17) Another reason poetry is often used is because of the rhythm and rhyme and that can be very effective. There's a lot of evidence that, particularly as dementia advances, that rhythm and rhyme become increasingly important. But I'm also thinking about the brevity sometimes of, you've got a few words basically for one line, In-Person (36:17) Another reason poetry is often used is because of the rhythm and rhyme and that can be very effective. a lot of evidence that particularly as dementia advances that rhythm, rhyme become increasingly important. also thinking about the brevity sometimes. You've got a few words basically in one line. si sapsford (36:36) but you have an awful lot to get across within that context. In-Person (36:36) But you have an awful lot to get across within that Depth of meaning is there, isn't it? si sapsford (36:42) Yeah, so obviously like, just putting those maybe five words together, that can release an awful lot of thinking possibilities. exactly. think it does, you know, people are all individuals, aren't they? And we've certainly got one person in one of our reading who In-Person (36:42) Yeah, so obviously, you just putting those maybe five words together, that release an awful lot of thinking possibilities. exactly. I think it does, you know, people are all individuals, aren't they? And we've certainly got one person in one of our reading groups si sapsford (37:00) will say things like, I hated poetry at school. And... In-Person (37:00) will say things like, I hated poetry at school. his default is, no, not a poem. But he has been known to say to one of our facilitators, if only you had taught poetry at school, then I would have liked it. often it is about the way you present it si sapsford (37:05) His default is, no, not a poem. But he has been known to say, you know, to one of our facilitators, if only you had taught poetry at school, then I would have liked it. often it is, about the way present it I suppose In-Person (37:21) a positivity that you bring si sapsford (37:21) positivity that you bring In-Person (37:24) something. I think that's really important. In any of the arts, some people will say, I hate that, you what were they trying to They should be allowed to say that though, shouldn't they? absolutely. Yeah. the thing is, quite often I find if I si sapsford (37:23) something. I think that's really important. In any of the arts, sometimes people will say, I hate that. What were they trying to say? They'd allowed to say that, shouldn't they? absolutely. But the thing is, quite often I find I each take something different away, then... In-Person (37:39) each take something different away than si sapsford (37:41) having a bit more understanding of something people see it in a different light. and it makes me realize, and I was thinking about this because earlier in the week I was working at the National Portrait Gallery and I was working one of the galleries itself. And so I spent the whole day in one room and it wasn't one of my favorite rooms In-Person (37:41) having a bit more understanding of something people see it in a different light. Yeah, totally. And it made me realise, and I was thinking about this because earlier in week I was working at the National Portrait Gallery and I was working one of the galleries itself and so I spent the whole day in one room and it wasn't one of my favourite rooms si sapsford (38:00) But having spent all this time in the room, I was noticing In-Person (38:01) But having spent all this time in the room, I was noticing that all the men in that room had garters, And then I was sort of thinking, why is that? then obviously by the third hour, I'm thinking, yeah, Knights of the Garter. And that they always had it on a particular leg. And then I found myself peering at another gallery through the doorway, and I could see, yeah, another Knight of the Garter, which then made me think, maybe I need to si sapsford (38:04) that all the men in that room had garters, And then I was sort of thinking, why is that? And then obviously by the third hour I'm thinking, yeah, Knights of the Garter. And that they always had it on a particular leg. And then I sort of like found myself peering at another gallery through the doorway and I could see, yeah, another Knight of the Garter, which then made me think, maybe I need step back and have a little think of what does it actually mean to be a Knight of the Garter, which is still on my list of things to do. In-Person (38:23) step back and have a little think of what does it actually mean to be a knight of the garter, which is still on my list of things to do. si sapsford (38:29) But you don't notice things if you're whizzing through a room and saying, don't like that, like that, don't like that. Which is, you we all do it In-Person (38:29) you don't notice things if you're whizzing through a room and say, don't like that, like that, don't like that. Which is, you we all do it. si sapsford (38:35) if we're short of time, but to be forced to sit still and take the time, you do notice things whether it's a gallery or outside in nature or, it's about time and seeing, isn't it? It is about time and seeing In-Person (38:35) for shorter time, but to be forced to sit still and take the time. You do notice things whether it's a gallery or outside, nature or, it's about time and seeing, isn't it? It is about time and seeing and I si sapsford (38:48) I think the reading groups that we've... In-Person (38:48) I think with the reading groups that we've been running, creating that space, that time, and a place where people feel safe, that's been really valuable to see how that has worked. think providing a space for people living with dementia to read together with their carers or supporters, but in a facilitated way. si sapsford (38:51) been running, creating that space, that time, and a place where people feel safe. that's been really valuable to see how that has worked. think providing a space for people living with dementia to read together with their carers or supporters, but in a facilitated way. In-Person (39:10) that has offered them time the opening questions and stimulus is right, then the conversations that come out are really interesting and wide ranging and not a complicated formula really, but it's just. si sapsford (39:10) has offered them time if the opening questions and stimulus is right then the conversations that come out are really interesting and wide ranging and it's not a complicated formula really but it's just... In-Person (39:25) It's been amazing to see the impact that it's had and actually having a piece of reading as a starting point rather than just say, let's all meet up and have a cup of coffee. Having something to read and talk about, you know, and it could be a picture, could be, actually having that focus means that it puts, it kind of creates a level playing field for people si sapsford (39:25) it's been amazing to see the impact that it's had and actually having piece of reading as a starting point rather than just say let's all meet up and have a cup of coffee. Having something to read and talk about, know, and it could be a picture, could be, you actually having that focus means that it puts, it kind of creates a level playing field for people In-Person (39:47) gives them something shared you're creating a shared experience and I think that that's probably underrated as something we can do I think as a society we tend to be a bit fearful of engaging with people living with dementia and I si sapsford (39:47) gives them something You're creating a shared experience I think that's probably underrated something we can do. I think as a society tend a bit fearful engaging with people living with dementia and I It's perhaps something all need to get better at because there are more and living with dementia numbers are going up all the time I think we need to be creative in our response to challenge it need to rocket science and In-Person (40:03) It's perhaps something that we all need to get better at because there are more and more people living with dementia numbers are going up all the time. And I think we need to be more creative in our response to that challenge. But it doesn't be rocket science and Sharing reading with somebody, whether it's one-to-one or in a small group, can be really, really powerful experience and a way of... si sapsford (40:21) Sharing reading somebody, whether it's one to one or in a small group, can be really, really powerful experience and a way giving people support enabling them to feel connected again in a way perhaps is often people lose when they develop dementia, often lose confidence about. In-Person (40:29) giving people support and enabling them to feel connected again in a way that perhaps is often people lose they develop dementia, often lose confidence about being connected into social setting. So I think it's really worth doing. si sapsford (40:40) being connected into social setting. So think it's really worth doing. Yes, I've seen that in my own family context. My mother-in-law, doesn't like to go out and be out of her comfort zone is probably the most cliched thing. she's familiar with the house and, that's not frightening, but to step out is quite frightening for her. In-Person (40:49) mother-in-law doesn't like to go out and be of her comfort zone is probably the most cliched thing. she's familiar with the house and that's not frightening but to step out is quite frightening for her. I think it can be frightening because it's unfamiliar and I think often si sapsford (41:00) think it can be frightening because it's unfamiliar and I think often the fear that other people will perhaps not be patient with you not understand. In-Person (41:05) the fear that other people will perhaps not be patient with you not understand why you just do the same things as perhaps everybody else in the same way or the same ways you used to si sapsford (41:11) just do the same things as perhaps everybody else in the same way or the same ways you used Yes, I think there's a lot of impatience out there. So imagining, you might have other projects coming up or thinking about, but do you find that the collections find you or are you actively looking for collections to, you you think, I haven't. In-Person (41:22) coming up or thinking about do you find that the collections find you or are you actively looking for collections to you know you think I'm really si sapsford (41:30) I'm really interested in this person, I'd like to see that collection. Or are you being approached think it's a mix. We're doing a mix. We have got In-Person (41:31) interested in this person I'd like to see that collection or are you being approached in? I think it's a mix we're doing a mix and we have got si sapsford (41:38) Other museum and archive partners that we're working with at the moment where content for books is starting to... In-Person (41:38) other museum and archive partners that we're working with at the moment where content for books is starting to emerge developed. think it's an area of interest to other organisations, so we're talking si sapsford (41:47) emerge developed. think it's an area of interest to other organisations so talking In-Person (41:56) about how we might do more work together. A lot of libraries are very interested in the whole reading with dementia si sapsford (41:56) about how we might do more work together. lot of libraries are very interested in the whole reading with dementia. In-Person (42:04) with our project, but other ways in which they could develop that. We've just recently hosted a national symposium on reading with which drew people from all over the country to come and share learning. si sapsford (42:04) with our project but other ways in which they could develop that. We've just recently hosted a national symposium on reading with dementia which drew people from all over the country to come share learning. So hopefully that's going to generate more activity in other places. But in terms of our own sort of publishing ambitions, yes, we're looking at doing more books in the same series, which is looking at a creative person and working with archive develop narratives. In-Person (42:16) So hopefully that's going to generate more activity in other places. But in terms of our own sort of publishing ambitions, yes, we're looking at doing books in the same series, which is looking at a creative person and working with archive to develop narratives. si sapsford (42:37) we've just been awarded some funding from the Arts Council to develop of test really, a sensory book for people with more advanced dementia. For that we will be working with care homes Newcastle Gateshead in the first instance In-Person (42:37) we've just been awarded some funding from the Arts Council to develop of test really, a sensory book for people with more advanced dementia. For that we will be working with care homes in Newcastle and Gateshead in the first instance. I suppose it's taking inspiration from other sort of tactile and sensory resources that people might use people with more advanced dementia and thinking about how you might translate that learning into how you could shape a And so it might, well, it's a cloth book. Yes, exactly. So how would you make a cloth book into something that works si sapsford (42:53) I suppose it's taking inspiration from other tactile and sensory resources that people might use with people with more advanced dementia and thinking about how you might translate that learning into how you could shape a I my words, a cloth book. I remember my cloth book. Exactly. So how would you make a cloth book into something that works? In-Person (43:17) for people with dementia? So not. si sapsford (43:17) for people with dementia, In-Person (43:19) You know, so it's not a children's book. At the moment, we're thinking along the lines of adapting some of the content from the Buick book, which is the first dementia friendly book we did. But we need to nail that. We need a storyboard and then we'll be working with si sapsford (43:19) it's not a children's book. At the moment we're thinking along the lines of adapting some of the content from the Buick book, which was the first dementia friendly book we did, but to nail that, we need a storyboard and then we'll be working with... In-Person (43:35) probably textile artists in the first instance to create some prototypes, which we can then look at. si sapsford (43:42) I did wonder about your book Dorothy Wordsworth with the daffodil because well it is textured and I was wondering if that was well I assumed it was deliberate In-Person (43:42) I did wonder about your book Dorothy Wordsworth with the daffodil. Yeah. textured and I wondering if that was, I assumed it was deliberate you mean the bit on the on the front cover on the yes that's exactly so on both books si sapsford (43:52) you mean the bit on the On the cover, yeah. Yes, that's exactly. on both books that's something that Wendy, our designer, came up with. So it just adds to the tactile quality of the book. In-Person (43:58) that's something that Wendy our designer came up with so it just adds to the the tactile quality of the book si sapsford (44:05) the pages have a of a matte finish that's easier to turn, especially if you're looking, you know a lot of people In-Person (44:05) the pages are sort of a matte finish that's easier to turn especially if you're and you can you know a lot of people si sapsford (44:12) just have dementia, may also have, problems with fine motor skills they might only be able to turn a paper with one hand. So you've got to think about all of that kind of thing. So matte paper is easier. In-Person (44:12) won't just have dementia, may also have, problems with fine motor skills they might only be able to turn a page with one hand. So you've got to think about all of that kind of thing. So the matte paper is easier. si sapsford (44:25) And we've got a page marker, a ribbon marker, again that was designed for something In-Person (44:25) And we've got page marker, you know, a ribbon marker. Again, that was designed for something. si sapsford (44:31) to add to the tactile experience of the book. But the sensory book for people with more advanced dementia would be several steps on from that. In-Person (44:31) to add to the tactile experience of the book. But the sensory book for people with more advanced dementia would be several steps on from that. we're looking less, I suppose, at it from a graphic design point of view, although that's gonna be part of it. Because there will be some words in it. The idea is not that it would just be completely wordless, but that it would have, si sapsford (44:39) we're looking less, I suppose, at it from a graphic design point of view, although that's going to be part of it. Because there will be some words in it, the idea is not that it would just be completely wordless, but that it In-Person (44:53) very short paired back bits of text and si sapsford (44:53) very short, paired back bits of text some... In-Person (44:56) some interactive elements thinking about how you design that for again for adults so it doesn't feel like it's you're not dumbing down it's something that respects people's si sapsford (44:57) some interactive elements, thinking about how you design that for, again for adults, so it doesn't feel like it's you're not dumbing down. something that respects people's... In-Person (45:08) being I suppose. just talking now I'm suddenly thinking, it would be great if run a workshop people are their own books, not literally making their own books, but can cover or add things and stick things in and I'm... si sapsford (45:10) just talking now I was sort thinking, it'd be great if could run a workshop people are making their own books, not literally making their own books, you can cover or add things and stick things in and I'm immediately In-Person (45:21) me to think about Anselm Kiefer's books, si sapsford (45:21) thinking about Anselm Kiefer's books. In-Person (45:24) which are art projects, thought of as a book that they're sort of bulging with bits of wallpaper stuck in, and drawings and all of that, and the texture the fast-drying paint that might be ribbed and stuff like that. There's just, you know, just listening to you talk about it sort of sets my mind off down. si sapsford (45:24) which are art projects, and they start off as a book, but they're sort of bulging with bits of wallpaper stuck in, drawings and all of that, and the texture of, the fast drying paint that might be ribbed and stuff like that. There's just, you know, just listening to you talk about it sort of sets my mind off down. that path and I kind of think well, you know, In-Person (45:43) that path and I kind of think well, you know... si sapsford (45:47) that would be quite a lovely thing to have not just for the person making it but for a family because it is very expressive of, thoughts and yeah, you really are doing a great job setting up these projects and making them sort of spread out to different places. Yes, I think that's a really interesting idea, sort of art workshop. In-Person (45:47) That would be quite a lovely thing to have, not just for the person making it, but for a family because it is very expressive of yeah, you really are doing a great job setting up these projects and making them sort of spread out to different places. Yes, I think that's, I think that is a really interesting idea, that sort of art workshop to create, those would be more kind of one-off creations. si sapsford (46:10) to create those would be more kind of one-off creations. In-Person (46:15) Yeah, but I think it really is interesting to think about all the different ways in which the book format can be used, to engage people. si sapsford (46:14) I think so. But I I think it really is interesting to think about all the different ways in which the book format can used people. A friend of mine worked people with dementia on a project, an art project, I went to have a look at what all the different artists were doing. And the one I was very much taken with was a tapestry workshop. And I think there were probably about six people who'd, completed or almost completed a tapestry. it could be In-Person (46:28) I went to have a look at what all the different artists were doing and the one I was very much taken with was a tapestry workshop and I think there were probably about six people who'd, completed or almost completed a tapestry. si sapsford (46:43) a sunflower, it could be a landscape. I think they'd chosen images and three or four years later, In-Person (46:43) a sunflower, could be a landscape. I think they'd chosen images and three or four years later, they went back and they started the tapestries again. But the difference the way they were seeing and interpreting the sunflower, for example, was very different between the two. I found that very interesting. si sapsford (46:48) they went back and they were started the tapestries again. But the difference the way they were seeing and interpreting the sunflower, for example, was very different between the two. I found that very interesting. In-Person (47:00) And as dementia progresses, people's sense of visual perception changes quite often. So they're not seeing things necessarily in the same way. There's been quite a lot of studies of that, which show that, si sapsford (47:00) And as dementia progresses it people's sense of visual perception changes quite often so they're not seeing things necessarily in the same way. There's been quite a lot of studies of that which show that In-Person (47:14) know, way people draw or paint changes as si sapsford (47:14) way people draw or paint changes as... In-Person (47:17) the dementia progresses. I think it's a great way for people who haven't got dementia see that shift. Yeah, understand. Yeah, that's really interesting, si sapsford (47:17) as the dementia progresses. But it's a great, I think it's a great way for people who haven't got dementia to see that shift. It's a very visual way of seeing a shift, isn't it? In-Person (47:30) isn't it? Yes. si sapsford (47:32) was thinking, like, have you ever been, going through an archive and come across something that's made you completely change your opinion? about the person that you're looking at? And gosh, I would never have thought this object would be here or this drawing would be here or that they thought like that. In-Person (47:32) I was thinking, have you ever been going through an archive and come across something that's made you completely change your opinion? about the person that you're looking at? Gosh, I would never have thought this object would be here or this drawing would be here or that they thought like that. So remember used to spend quite a lot of time with Judith Carr, who wrote The Tiger Who Came to Tea, si sapsford (47:50) remember used to spend quite a lot of time with Judith Carr, who wrote The Tiger, who came to tea. In-Person (47:57) decided to give her archive to Seven Stories, and I can si sapsford (47:57) she decided to give her archive to seven stories and I In-Person (48:00) remember going through her plan chests with her for the first time and looking at some of her childhood drawings. si sapsford (48:03) going through her planchests with her for the first time and looking at some of her childhood drawings. Which at that time hadn't been looked at at all really. In-Person (48:11) which at that time they hadn't been looked at at all really si sapsford (48:18) And I don't know how much Judith had really gone back to them. the archive was given two seven stories. And I just remember being blown away by seeing these street scenes of Berlin in In-Person (48:18) and I don't know how much Judith had really gone back to them was before the archive was given two seven stories and I just remember being blown away by seeing these street scenes of Berlin and si sapsford (48:33) 1933. just before the family had to leave Germany. In-Person (48:36) just before the family had to leave Germany and si sapsford (48:40) I just thought seeing her child's eye view, every little detail, obviously her story was known because she'd written about it in When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit, but I hadn't seen these In-Person (48:40) just thought seeing her child's eye view you know every little detail obviously story was known because she'd written about it in When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit but I hadn't seen these si sapsford (48:55) drawings before. I... In-Person (48:55) these drawings before and I sort of thought perhaps she would want to keep them but she she was very happy for them to come with the rest of the archive to seven stories and we curated those in an exhibition about her work so they were then seen by lots of people si sapsford (48:57) sort of thought perhaps she would want to keep them but she was very happy for them to come with the rest of the archive to Seven Stories. And we curated those in an exhibition about her work so they were then seen by lots of people. In-Person (49:13) I felt so privileged to have seen those, suppose, at that stage before they became better known. And si sapsford (49:13) I felt so privileged to have those I suppose at that stage before became better known In-Person (49:22) were then able to sort of start really si sapsford (49:22) were then able to start really telling her story through exhibitions and learning programmes. That exhibition then went on tour around the country In-Person (49:25) telling her story through exhibitions and learning programmes. And that exhibition then went on tour around the country Again, it reminded me of Anselm Keefe because a lot of his work, you can see it's directly connected to him playing in the rubble after You just don't get away from... si sapsford (49:32) Again, it reminded me of Anselm Keefe because a lot of his work, you can see it's directly connected to him playing in the rubble after the war, you just don't get away from those really major formative experiences in your life, do you? It's always there and you think you may have moved on and then you find that, well, actually now I'm still making the same thing. And I think... In-Person (49:43) those really major formative experiences in life? No, no, It's always there and you think you may have moved on and then you find that, actually now I'm still making the same thing and we do keep going back to those things. And I think that, exactly, and I think there must be, you know, there is something in your psyche that maybe you just keep things that are important. si sapsford (49:53) we do keep going back to those things we don't move very far. Exactly, I think there must be, you know there is something in your psyche that maybe you just keep things are important at that point in your life. Well I did notice with a lot of the people that I worked with when I was working at Seven Stories because I'd often go to illustrators and all those homes. In-Person (50:05) at that point in your life. Although I did notice with a lot of the people that I worked with when I was working at Seven Stories, because I'd often go to illustrators and authors' homes, if they were people who had big homes and perhaps hadn't had to move, hadn't downsized, they'd been quite successful perhaps, then they tended to have more space. So they would tend to have bigger archives and... si sapsford (50:16) If they were people who had big homes and perhaps hadn't had to move, hadn't downsized, they'd been quite successful perhaps, then they tended to have more space. So they would tend to have bigger archives and kept more stuff. People who've had to move house would often get rid of things yeah. In-Person (50:29) kept more stuff. People who've had to move house often get rid of things yeah, so interesting. A sculpture, yeah. No, it's true. mean, you forget until you're actually dealing with this kind of thing it's often practical considerations of what shapes an archive. It's whether somebody's moved house. si sapsford (50:35) I used to get quite jealous of painters because I think, you can store painting so much more easily than sculpture. No, it's true. mean, you forget until you're actually dealing with this kind of thing often practical considerations at what shapes an archive is, whether somebody's moved house. but it's also interesting an archive because, the person who's well, it's a little bit like, you were saying. In-Person (50:52) But it's also interesting in archive because the person who's well it's a little bit like you were saying si sapsford (50:58) those drawings might not have been looked at for years. The artist or the writer, you know, they may not have revisited that and made the connections. And unless you look back and reflect, you're not necessarily thinking, yes, this has been the same story that keeps coming through in my life. And obviously there's a need to look back and In-Person (50:58) those drawings might not have been looked at for years the artist or the writer you know they may not have revisited that and made the connections and unless you look back and reflect you're not necessarily thinking yes this has been the same story that keeps coming through in my life and obviously there's a need to look back and si sapsford (51:16) address things as well as clearing out. And so I was thinking probably, when people going through archives, they're finding things that the author probably never even thought twice about. I'm sure that's true, yeah, no, that's definitely true. think when you go someone's archive you often pick up on things that perhaps creator has forgotten about realise were significant. In-Person (51:25) sure that's true. Yeah, no, that's definitely true. think when you go someone's archive, you often pick up on things that perhaps creator has forgotten about or realise were significant. si sapsford (51:40) all leave those traces behind in me. In-Person (51:39) We all leave those traces behind, we? si sapsford (51:42) Well, I suppose we do, but... In-Person (51:43) suppose we do, si sapsford (51:45) equally those, traces can be lost. In-Person (51:45) equally traces can be for the archivist, the skill of the archivist, I suppose, or the person building a collection or deciding what to keep is trying to sort of think, stories is this telling? si sapsford (51:48) For the archivist, the skill of the archivist, I suppose, or all the person building a collection or deciding what to keep, is trying to sort of think, what stories is this In-Person (51:58) how an archive is going to be used. So there is always a risk. si sapsford (51:58) You can't always predict how an archive is going to be used. So there is always a risk. In-Person (52:02) I suppose you get rid of something that might have meant something to somebody in the future. But on the other hand, if literally kept everything, it becomes a bit like looking for the needle in the haystack, doesn't it? Absolutely. si sapsford (52:02) I suppose you get rid of something that might have meant something to somebody in the future but on the other hand if literally kept everything it becomes a bit like looking for the needle in the haystack doesn't it? Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to your next book. I'm just wondering which archive you're going to delve into next. In-Person (52:16) I'm really looking forward to your next book. Just wondering which archive you're going to delve into next. Well, I don't want to tempt fate really, been at doing something with the support of the Royal Collections Trust, doing something about Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. si sapsford (52:26) been doing something with support of the Royal Collections Trust, doing something about Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. In-Person (52:34) We're also talking to si sapsford (52:34) I want the In-Person (52:35) the Jane Austen Museum about doing something about Jane Austen. So there's some other things, other irons in the fire. the Brontes are also on the agenda. There's so much to go at and so si sapsford (52:36) as well. In-Person (52:48) many wonderful collections and the Bronte Parsonage Museum are very keen to work with us. si sapsford (52:55) Brilliant. Yeah. And the sensory books. I'd really like to see those because that's like one of my, I know it's not for children, but one of my fondest memories was my sensory book as a child and being able to learn how to tie shoelaces. And I kept it for years and then think my mum threw it out and it was like heartbreak. It's little book, but it was like my first book. In-Person (52:54) It's work in progress. Yeah and the sensory books, I'd really like to see those. It's not for children but one of my fondest memories was my sensory book as a child and being able to learn how to tie shoelaces and I kept it for years and then my mum threw it out and it was like heartbreak, this little book but it was like my first book. Yes. si sapsford (53:16) Sarah, thank you so much for giving me your time today. I really enjoyed chatting. In-Person (53:16) Sarah, thank you so much for giving me your time today. It's a pleasure. It's been nice to chat to you too, Sai. Thank you. si sapsford (53:20) Okay,