si (00:05) Hello, I'm Si Sapsford and this is My Private View, a series about how we look at art and comes out of that habit of looking and thinking and of wondering what other people see when they're doing the same thing. Each month, I'll sit down with someone from various creative backgrounds and talk not just about what they make, but how they see, what they notice, what stays with them and what shapes their way of working. If something in an earlier episode stays with you or if it leaves you with a question, you can send it to me at sizeapsford and I'll bring some of those into future conversations. And I'll also include in each episode, a small reflection, something I've seen or thought about that I can't quite let go of. I'm your host and this is my private view. and this leads me nicely into a musing I had earlier this week. si sapsford (01:07) One of the books that has stayed with me all my life is On the Beach by Neville Shute. Reading it again years later. I noticed things I had barely registered as a teenager. The protective attitude towards women, the assumptions about men and women's roles. They feel dated now, just as they do in many novels of the period. Yet I found I could forgive them, of Regency dramas that remain so popular today. We don't expect Elizabeth Bennet or Mr. Darcy to think like 21st century people. And perhaps we shouldn't expect it of Neville Schuette's characters either. What struck me far more was remembering how completely the novel absorbed me the first time I read it. I'd become so immersed in its world that I read it almost in one sitting. It was a story about an American submarine and its crew. There'd been a nuclear war and finding everyone in America and the rest of the world almost dead. They decided to stay in Australia, where the last remnants of humanity were living, waiting for disaster to arrive. Later that evening, while my friends were excitedly planning a summer holiday, I found myself saying, what's the point? We'll all be dead in three months. They looked at me as though I was mad. Only then did I realise I hadn't quite left the novel behind me. For a fleeting moment, its emotional reality had become my own. I've often thought about that incident. Films can move me deeply, but they rarely follow me out of the cinema in quite the same way. A great novel seems to linger. It quietly inhabits your thoughts, colors your mood, and just occasionally makes the imagined world feel more immediate than the real one. The finest novels don't simply tell us a story. They lend us their emotional reality. And for a while, I carried it with me into my own life. So perhaps the mark of a good historical fiction isn't that it makes the past acceptable, but that it makes the people who lived in it understandable. si sapsford (03:17) Hello, today I'm joined by George Bradley. George is a former police detective whose career has taken her from some of the most challenging areas of frontline policing to becoming head of operations on Channel Force 100. But behind the television program is a lifetime of making difficult decisions, reading people and working under pressure. Today, we'll be talking not just about Hunted, but about the experiences that shape the person behind the role. Hello, George. si sapsford (03:48) I know you also worked on two series of Sky Ones The Heist before joining Hunted but before we get into your television career I'd like to start at the beginning and find out about your journey into policing. Were there any particular moments that initially made you think perhaps policing is something that you might be good at or did policing choose you? Well interesting, it's a bit of a combination of the two I think because I went to university in the early 90s after finishing school but only did half of my degree. In-Person (03:48) I know you also worked on two series of Sky Ones The Heist before joining Hunted but before we get into your television career I'd like to start at the beginning and find out about your journey into policing. Were there any particular moments that initially made you think perhaps policing is something that you might be good at or did policing choose you? Well interesting it's a bit of a combination of the two I think because I went to university in the early 90s after finishing school but only did half of my degree and it was a bit too hard. I went to Benidorm si sapsford (04:16) was a bit too hard. I went to Benidorm In-Person (04:18) in the end, having done a language degree on a Club 1830 holiday. And the relevance of that is just that it was six months of complete chaos. I was mixing with all sorts of people that you wouldn't ordinarily mix with on a day-to-day basis. And after coming home, I found myself at a bit of a loss as to what to do. Everybody else was moving on and I was stuck at home. I was working in a pub briefly and there was an incident between, well it was a local. si sapsford (04:18) in the end, having done a language degree on a club 1830 holiday. And the relevance of that is just that it was six months of complete chaos. I mixing with all sorts of people that you wouldn't ordinarily mix with on a day-to-day basis. And after coming home, I found myself at a bit of a loss as to what to do. Everybody else was moving on and I was stuck at home. I was working in a club briefly and there was an incident between, well was a local In-Person (04:42) came from a really rough family and he was celebrating a birthday with friends and I was working in the pub at the time, and I was talking to a girlfriend at the bar, was a very quiet Tuesday night I remember, but some construction workers who were from a different part of Yorkshire were and this guy from the family that weren't quite so nice threw a pint glass and it sort of scalped my friend who was at the bar, meant to hit one of these construction workers. si sapsford (04:42) guy I came from a really rough family and he was celebrating a birthday with friends and I was working in the pub at the time, and I was talking to a girlfriend at the bar, was a very quiet Tuesday night I remember but some construction workers who were from a different part of Yorkshire were in this guy from the family that weren't quite so nice, through a pie class, he sort of scouted my friend who was at the bar, meant to hit one of these construction workers and In-Person (05:06) And so what happened then, I was thrown into the middle of this, I had to get them si sapsford (05:06) so what happened then, I was thrown into the middle of this, I had to get In-Person (05:09) out of the pub, I had to call 999, I had to deal with the aftermath. And subsequently, I ended up dealing with the police. I was a significant witness, I was called to Crown Court, and I spent a lot of time giving my evidence. And the police officer that was involved in the case said, have you thought about being in the police, joining the police? And I said, no, I don't like fighting. it wasn't on my radar anywhere. si sapsford (05:09) at the pub, had to call 999, I had to deal with the aftermath and subsequently I ended up dealing with the police. I was a significant witness, I was called to Crown Court and I spent a lot of time giving my evidence and the police officer that was involved in the case said have you thought about being in the police, joining the police? I said no, I don't like fighting, wasn't Elmite Radar anywhere. But actually I thought twice about it, applied, got in first time and that was the... In-Person (05:30) But actually I thought twice about it, applied, got in first time and that was the si sapsford (05:35) Springboard really to sort of life beginning and moving to Oxfordshire and it's like a sliding door moment really that fight essentially But I developed the skills being in Benidorm associated with some really I mean the Hells Angels Convention that happens I don't if it still does but a European Hells Angels Convention happened every year and they used to convene In-Person (05:35) springboard really to sort of life beginning and moving to Oxfordshire. And like a sliding door moment really, that fight essentially. But I developed the skills being in Benidorm associated with some really, I mean, there's a Hells Angels that happens. I don't know if it still does, but a European Hells Angels convention happened every year and they used to convene. si sapsford (05:55) in Benidorm there would be loads of them so They would have guns that was fighting. I got in the middle of two guys separated fights. It was a real In-Person (05:55) In Benidorm, there would be loads of them. So they would have guns, there was fighting. I got in the middle of two guys, separated fights. It was a real si sapsford (06:03) sort of coming from cozy background if you like and not having much experience at all, all of a sudden I've catapulted into this. In-Person (06:03) sort of coming from cozy background, if you like, and not having much experience at all. All of a sudden I'm catapulted into this slightly grimy, if you like, and frightening existence, but one that I managed to navigate my way through safely. And I got all sorts of, skillset, really. si sapsford (06:10) slightly grimy, you like, and frightening existence, but one that I managed to navigate my way through safely. And I got all sorts a skill set, really. And then came the fight and the pull-up, and then the step towards the police, and then trying and then being accepted. and I didn't look back. So it was a combination of then the police choosing me that actually it was a great career choice for me. But it's interesting because you said In-Person (06:20) And then came the fight in the pub and then they'd stepped towards the police and then trying and then being accepted and and I didn't look back. So it was a combination of them, the police choosing me that actually it was a great career choice for me. But it's interesting because you said you had to take charge in the pub. Yeah. Was that because of your job? si sapsford (06:34) had to take charge in the pub was that was that because of your job I mean why didn't the landlord not call the police? In-Person (06:40) Because there was no It was a Tuesday night and was behind the bar on my own. There was nobody else in the pub. So the landlord, I can't even remember that landlord was my dad's best friend at the time. He lived above, but I don't remember him playing any part in that. si sapsford (06:45) in the pubs. So the landlord, I can't remember that landlord was my dad's best friend at the time, he lived above but I don't remember him playing any part in that. In-Person (06:53) So I feel like it was very much my experience. I think so because, you know, not everyone would step forward. Not everyone would see it as their job to take that on, I think. si sapsford (06:53) I feel like it was very much my experience. I think so because you know not everyone would step forward not everyone would see it as their job to take take that on I think. you might have just stayed and help the friend with the injury and left it to someone else. so I think it's a particular characteristic In-Person (07:04) you might have just stayed and helped a friend with the injury and then someone else. So I think it's a particular characteristic si sapsford (07:10) you know In-Person (07:10) Well, I say this to friends half joking, I suppose, really, but I am very good in a fight. si sapsford (07:11) Well, I say this to friends half joking, I suppose, really, but I am very good in a fight. In-Person (07:16) I've always been able to mediate. I can stop people fighting. I'm not frightened of getting involved in a fight. I don't like fighting. That goes without saying But for some reason, I'm able to calmly and effectively resolve situations. that was one of them. And that was probably the first one really for significant. si sapsford (07:16) I've always been able to mediate, I can stop people fighting, I'm not frightened of getting involved in a fight. I don't like fighting, that goes without saying, but for some reason I'm able to calmly and effectively resolve situations and that was one of them and that was probably the first one really, the first significant In-Person (07:34) one that I was involved in but certainly it was the springboard for me getting into the police and when I was interviewed because you have a three-day interview process I talked about the experience in Benidorm si sapsford (07:34) one that I was involved in, but certainly it was, the springboard for me getting into the police. And when I was interviewed, because you have a three day interview process, I talked about the experience in Benidorm. In-Person (07:45) so that combined with that experience was all that they needed really in terms of life experience. si sapsford (07:45) So that combined with that experience was all that they needed really in terms of life experience. now that you're not in the police, do you find yourself still having those sort of characteristics required as a police officer? I guess I'm kind of thinking about like you see a situation and you're making these value judgments. this a potential crime or someone in distress? Do I need to step in? Are you still? Yeah, In-Person (07:52) Do find yourself still having those characteristics required as a police officer? I guess I'm thinking about you see a situation and you're making these value this a potential crime or someone in distress? Do I need to step in? Are you still... si sapsford (08:09) constantly. In-Person (08:09) Yeah, constantly, every day. Every day. I'm constantly risk assessing. I notice people all around me. I think about who may be in danger. I feel like I can spot somebody who's si sapsford (08:11) Every day I'm constantly risk assessing. I notice people all around me. I think about who may be in danger. I feel like I can spot somebody who's... In-Person (08:20) suspicious or who's acting suspiciously a mile off. I feel like it's... si sapsford (08:20) suspicious or who's acting suspiciously a mile I feel like it's a strange superpower and I think a lot of cops or ex-cops would say the same. You're able to risk assess really, really effectively. And I'm trying, if I could transfer those skills to my kids or anybody else's kids for that matter, i.e. you're in a situation, you've got a radar going off with regards to who you need to keep your eye on, what's not right in your peripheral vision, all of those In-Person (08:25) strange superpower and I think a lot of cops or ex-cops would say the same. You're able to risk assess really, really effectively. And I'm trying, if I could transfer those skills to my kids or anybody else's kids for that matter, i.e. you're in a situation, you've got a radar going off with regards to who you need to keep your eye on, what's not right in your peripheral vision, all of those things si sapsford (08:49) I'm constantly aware of. In-Person (08:49) I'm constantly aware of. si sapsford (08:51) And I guess you've been in a lot of stressful situations and I'm just wondering, you In-Person (08:51) And I guess you've been in a lot of situations and I'm just wondering... si sapsford (08:58) find you brought those sort of stresses home with you after work at the end of the day? In-Person (09:02) I si sapsford (09:03) I'm a first aid instructor now so if somebody's In-Person (09:03) I'm a first aid instructor now so if somebody's hurt si sapsford (09:07) especially if it's somebody I know, even if I don't know them very well. So for example, I was at triathlon recently with my son this particular child was in a lot of pain. I didn't know why was in a lot of pain, we had to stop the race and he was a lot of pain. In-Person (09:07) especially if it's somebody I know, even if I don't know them very well. But so, for example, I was at a triathlon recently with my son and particular child was in a lot of pain. I didn't know why he was in a lot of pain. We had to the race. was a lot of pain. And what I want to do is go over and say, can I help? si sapsford (09:20) and what I want to do is go over and say can I help In-Person (09:23) I speak to somebody? Can I get, can I make more comfortable? si sapsford (09:23) Can I speak to somebody? Can I make them more In-Person (09:26) Yeah, I'm getting more aware and I'm getting further away from the police. It's two and a half years since I left. si sapsford (09:26) Yeah, I'm getting more aware. And I'm getting further away from the police, it's two and half years since I left In-Person (09:31) now si sapsford (09:31) now. In-Person (09:32) and I talk about being in the police because it was those core values are still my core values and I'm never going to change. I'm very proud of being in the police and learned an awful lot and I believe I was a good police officer because I cared and so you can't switch those things off but I am no longer a police officer I'm a former police officer and I don't have any authority so not everybody's gonna want my help and si sapsford (09:32) And I talk about being in the police because it was, those core values are still my core values and I'm never going to change. very proud of being in the police and I learned an awful lot I believe I was a good police officer because I cared. So you can't switch those things off, but I am no longer a police officer. I'm a former police officer and I don't have any authority. So not everybody's going want my help and In-Person (09:54) they're si sapsford (09:54) I'd quite like to be able to say no, thank you, we're all right, we don't need your help. So I need to switch that off a little bit. In-Person (09:54) quite right to be able to say no thank you we're all right we don't need your help so i need to switch that off a little bit si sapsford (10:00) So Celebrity Hunted come out and it's been great seeing you on there. But going back now to you, presumably you're leaving the police force. How did it? In-Person (10:00) So Celebrity Hunter has come out and it's been great seeing you on there, back now to you presumably leaving the police force, how did your television career kick start then? Well it's interesting, when you do the same thing for so many years, si sapsford (10:09) your television career kickstart then? Well, it's interesting. When you do the same thing for so many years... In-Person (10:17) lots of police officers will say the same, you feel like you... si sapsford (10:16) you feel like you it's ironic because you have so many transferable skills in the police but there's a moment that can last too long where you think I don't know what I'm going to do who's going to hire me I've been doing the same thing for so long and I felt a bit like that I wanted to change I wanted to feel freer and be able to make more decisions with regards to saying yes to things where if you're in the police and when you're a detective you can go in to work In-Person (10:20) It's ironic because you have so many transferable skills in the police. But there's a moment that can last too long where you think, don't know what I'm going to do, who's going to hire me? I've been doing the same thing for so long. And I felt a bit like that. I wanted to change. I wanted to feel freer and be able to make more decisions with regards to yes to things. where if you're in the police and when you're a detective, you can go in to work and something can happen. si sapsford (10:43) and something can happen In-Person (10:44) at any point throughout the course of your duty and that means you're stuck there. be working up to 24 hours essentially. And I was sick of that happening really and wanted a bit more freedom, children were young, et cetera. So I left and si sapsford (10:44) at any point throughout the course of your duty and that means you're still there. be working up to 24 hours essentially. And I was sick of that happening really and it wanted a bit more freedom, children were young etc. So I left joined LinkedIn, set myself up a profile and happened, this is again a sliding doors thing, this whole fate stepping in, to see an advert that Shine TV had placed. They were looking for a detective, a real detective to star in a new reality show called The Heist where essentially they were looking to replicate investigation team similar to a murder investigation room where you've got loads of detectives In-Person (10:57) joined linkedin set myself up a profile and happened this is again a sliding doors thing this whole fate stepping in to see an advert that shine tv had placed they were looking for a detective a real detective to star in a new reality show called the heist essentially they were looking to replicate major investigation team similar to a murder investigation room where you've got a load of detectives experienced si sapsford (11:18) detectives together and they're In-Person (11:18) detectives together and and they're si sapsford (11:20) putting a lot of resource and money into solving a crime. Now in the real world that happens if you've got a serious investigation, less likely to happen for something like a theft or a burglary or a robbery but at the first series of the house I was picked for as one of those detectives and we traveled to Thursk. In-Person (11:20) putting a lot of resource and money into solving a crime. Now in the real world that happens if you've got a serious investigation, less likely to happen for something like a theft or a burglary or a robbery. But on the first series of the heist I was picked for as one of those detectives and we traveled to Thursk. si sapsford (11:39) they turned an old primary school into a In-Person (11:39) turned an old primary school into a... si sapsford (11:42) police station. It was all very exciting. We had cars, we were riding around and we investigating a security van theft, was like a robbery. And we had 10 masked members of the public breaking into a security van, stealing £100,000, I believe. And of course, we had no idea who they were. And the aim of the program for them was if they could get away without being found out. And we didn't recover the money. In-Person (11:42) police station, was all very exciting. We had cars, we were riding around and we're investigating a security van theft, essentially. was like a robbery. And we had 10 masked members of the public breaking into a security van, stealing a hundred thousand pounds, I believe. And of course we had no idea who they were. And the aim of the program for them was if they could get away without being found out, and we didn't recover the money, they si sapsford (12:05) got to keep it but there was lots of daring do on their part they had to make In-Person (12:05) got to keep it. But there was lots of daring due on their part. They had to make si sapsford (12:10) interesting TV and choose different paths and different ways of hiding money and our job was to track them down and find out exactly who they were and stop their fun essentially and it was brilliant absolutely brilliant it was my first TV series and I loved it it was so exciting I can't tell you and then we did another series which was a similar In-Person (12:10) interesting TV and choose different paths and different ways of hiding money. And on our job was to track them down and to find out exactly who they were and stop their fun, essentially. And it was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. It was my first TV series and I loved it. It was so exciting. I can't tell you. And then we did another series, which was a similar, premise. But this time they sought to recreate the theft of si sapsford (12:34) premise but this time they sought to recreate the theft In-Person (12:39) Was it the Brinksmatte robbery? Anyway, was a, they hired a building in Anick and we got set designers to make it the Bank of Yorkshire, I think it was. And this time we had 10 new members of the public who broke into the bank and stole much bigger sum of money si sapsford (12:40) robbery. Anyway, they hired a building in Anick we got set designers to make it the Bank of Yorkshire, I think it was, and this time we had ten new members of the public who broke into the bank and stole a much bigger sum of money. In-Person (12:56) and much cleverer. si sapsford (12:56) and much cleverer. In-Person (12:58) they got much more dynamic and adventurous second series and again we had to find them and we had to retrieve the money and if we didn't they got to keep it so there was a time scale that we had to find them and to retrieve and recover the money and if we didn't they were lucky enough to keep it so again lots of adventure. si sapsford (12:58) They got much more dynamic and adventurous second series. And again, we had to find them, we had to retrieve the money. And if we didn't, they got to keep it. So there was a time scale that we had to find them and to retrieve and recover the money. And if we didn't, they were looking to keep it. So again, an adventure. just wondering, you were qualified as a next detective. What was the... In-Person (13:19) Yeah. What was the member of the public's qualification for doing a heist? Yes, for being a How were they selected? Well, it's interesting, isn't it? I think it's like anything. They wanted a diverse group of people that were going to be working together as a team. So they will have wanted to an element of competition in each and every one of them, I suppose. They wanted different backgrounds. They wanted to see a group of people that were going to rub along really well as a team, because it was a joint effort, both of these heists. si sapsford (13:20) member of the public's qualification for doing a heist. How were they selected? Well it's interesting isn't it, think it's like anything they wanted a diverse group of people that were going to be working together as a team so they would have wanted to an element of competition in each and every one of them I suppose they wanted different backgrounds they wanted to see a group of people that were going to rub along really well as a team because it was a joint effort both of these highest TV programs had to work together they committed the act In-Person (13:46) TV programs, had to work together. They committed the act si sapsford (13:49) together and there was some coordination, was a lot of planning, was a lot of strategy. They weren't working independently so I think they wanted to see that we were going to rub along. They wanted characters, they wanted people that were clever or that they thought maybe was to pull the wool over our eyes in that respect. So you know standard sort of comedy caper type stuff but it was fun. Again it was very dynamic, In-Person (13:49) together. And there was some coordination, there was a lot of planning, there was a lot of strategy. They weren't working independently. So I think they wanted to see that we're going to rub along. They wanted characters. They wanted people that were clever or they thought maybe able to pull the wool over our eyes in that respect. you know, standard sort of comedy caper type stuff. But it was fun. Again, it was very dynamic. si sapsford (14:14) set against the backdrop of Annick, lots of castles, In-Person (14:13) set against the backdrop of Anik. Lots of castles, si sapsford (14:18) beautiful scenery, great photography, a fantastic program really. So basically they're saying anyone can be a criminal? Yeah anyone can be a support of a production crew and I imagine brainstormed ideas. In-Person (14:18) beautiful scenery, great photography. a fantastic programme, really. Yeah. So basically they're saying anyone can be a criminal. Yeah, anyone can be a support of a production crew and I imagine brainstormed ideas. si sapsford (14:33) So because it's all about making good television ultimately, they want us to make good television, they want us on Hunter to be... In-Person (14:33) So because it's all about making good television, ultimately, they want us to make good television. They want us on Hunted to be, I don't know, to give, my character on Hunted is a grumpy, sort of cross, slightly sweary individual as the head of ops who's not taking any nonsense. And they want different characters in the team of fugitives or the team of thieves in the heist. And they want a balance really, but drama, drama and entertainment is what it's all about. si sapsford (14:40) I don't know. My character on Hunted is a grumpy, of cross, slightly sweary individual as the head of ops who's not taking any nonsense. And they want different characters in the team of fugitives, or the team of thieves in the heist. And they want a balance really, but drama. Drama and entertainment is what it's all about. In-Person (15:02) if anyone could be a thief, which is the premise the highs. si sapsford (15:02) if anyone could be a thief which is the premise the heist I'm just going back to your police career yes you know In-Person (15:07) I'm just going back to your police career. Yes. You know, did you ever make sort of judgements about people about, you thought, yes, they're definitely this criminal and then you reevaluate or vice versa? I've rarely, if I'm honest, or if I look back on things, I've rarely been surprised. si sapsford (15:10) did you ever make sort of judgments about people about, know, you thought, yes, they're definitely this criminal and then you reevaluate or vice versa? I've rarely, if I'm honest, or if I look back on things, I've rarely been surprised. In-Person (15:29) funny enough, very early on in my career, probably for the first 10 years, I was criticized for being too soft, si sapsford (15:29) funnily enough, very early on in my career, probably for the first 10 years, I was pretty sure I was being too soft. In-Person (15:36) for being too open-minded, I suppose, really. So you were good cop? I was definitely a good cop. There was a guy called Kim Fielding who is dead now, but when I joined the police, he was one of the top... si sapsford (15:36) for being too open-minded I suppose really. So you were good cop? I was definitely a cop. There was a guy called Kim Fielding who is dead now but when I joined the police he was one of the top not top criminals, that's not the right word. He was one of the most prolific offenders in Didcot, Wolliford in terms of causing the police the most trouble. Rumours were spreading that he was responsible for some serious violent crime that was unsolved and he linked to some horrific investigations. And he was quite a frightening character. Came from a good family, I think his brother was a journalist, I mean he was smart. But he was a drug addict and In-Person (15:52) not top criminals, that's not the right word. He was one of the most prolific offenders in Didcot and Wallingford in terms of causing the police the most trouble. Rumours were spreading that he was responsible for some serious violent crime that was unsolved and he was linked to some horrific investigations. And he was quite a frightening character. Came from a good family. I think his brother was a journalist. I mean, he was smart, but he was a drug addict. si sapsford (16:22) he In-Person (16:21) and he si sapsford (16:22) was chaos. He would do things like park his caravan outside the Rolling Fork police station and block all the cars in and then you couldn't, if he was arrested he would never come quietly. There was always a violent struggle with him. His name sort of drove fear into local police officers but for whatever reason I got on really well with him. So if he was ever arrested I would be called in take his fingerprints In-Person (16:23) was chaos. He would do things like park his caravan outside the Wallingford police station and block all the cars in and then you couldn't, if he was arrested, he would never come quietly. There was always a violent struggle with him. His name sort of drove fear into local police officers. But for whatever reason, I got on really well with him. So if he was ever arrested, I would be called in to take his fingerprints. si sapsford (16:49) and I remember having chats with him about it, about his education. In-Person (16:49) And I remember having chats with him about it, about his education, si sapsford (16:52) I mean I think, I was much younger but I think he liked me. Maybe he was attracted to me at that point and I certainly used that to my advantage but if he saw me in the police car driving around when I was before I was a detective he'd wave and you know so I was aware of his reputation if you like. I didn't take him seriously or the threat that he posed seriously In-Person (16:52) chats. I mean, I think I was much younger, but I think he liked me. Maybe he was attracted to me at that point. And I certainly use that to my advantage. But if he saw me in the police car driving around before I was a detective, he'd wave and, you know, so I was aware of his reputation, if you like. It's not that I didn't take him seriously or the threat that he posed seriously. si sapsford (17:18) but I was able to see past that and we had a rapport. He never In-Person (17:18) But I was able to see past that and we had a rapport. He never, si sapsford (17:22) Never hurt me, never threatened me, never harmed me. And I thought at the time, maybe some people just aren't treating him very nice, you know? So I was always very decent with him. And very early in my career, I had lots of covert human intelligence sources, informants essentially, because I cared about people and I always saw the good side. And then something happened at some point, maybe 10 years in, In-Person (17:22) never hurt me, never threatened me, never harmed me. And I thought at the time, maybe some people just aren't treating him very nice, you know? So I was always very decent with him. And very early in my career, I had lots of covert human intelligence sources, informants essentially, because I cared about people and I always saw the good side. And then something happened at some point, 10 years in. si sapsford (17:47) where I became more cynical. And I thought maybe I'd... In-Person (17:47) where I became more cynical. And I thought maybe I'd si sapsford (17:52) been too soft, I've been quite soft. In-Person (17:52) been too soft. I'd been criticized for being too soft. And si sapsford (17:55) And I operated from a biased point of view. Too friendly, too supportive. And actually I needed to get the balance right somewhere in the middle. And instead I went, I became quite cynical, about certain kinds of criminal offending. so you've got to be careful for that. In-Person (17:57) I operated from a biased point of view, too friendly, too supportive. And actually I needed to get the balance right somewhere in the middle. And instead I went, I became quite cynical. about certain kinds of criminal offending. so you've got to be careful for that. si sapsford (18:13) You've got to make sure you get the balance right as a police officer, I think. And do think that's one of the things that made you sort of reassess where your career was going and where you wanted to go? Yeah. In-Person (18:13) You've got to make sure you get the balance right as a police officer, I think. And do think that's one of the things that made you reassess where your career was going and where you wanted to go? Yeah. I think I experienced, a lot of serious misogyny. I had some terrible, terrible things said to me about me in the early stages of my career. Absolutely shocking things. And in some respects, I wish I'd logged them because I could have made a lot of money out of some of the terrible things that were said to me. si sapsford (18:22) I think I experienced, a lot of serious misogyny. I had some terrible, terrible things said to me about me in the early stages of my career. Absolutely shocking things. And in some respects I wish I'd loved them because I could have made lots of money out of some of the terrible things that were said to me. In-Person (18:40) But at the time you take it with a pinch of salt because you know that's what women did I think. si sapsford (18:40) But at the time you take it with a pinch of salt because, you know, that's what women did I think. In-Person (18:48) I stood up for myself as much as I possibly could and I was lucky that I was popular and I did well. si sapsford (18:48) I stood up for myself as much as I possibly could and I was lucky that I was popular and I did well. In-Person (18:57) But I think men thought I was arrogant, people chose to promote others over me. si sapsford (18:57) But I think men I was arrogant, people chose to promote others over me. I felt overlooked, I have to say. And then I think that was part of process for me leaving. I tried to be as successful and as decent as I possibly could, and I've really enjoyed my job, I'd volunteered to do everything I possibly could. And I really believe that I was an excellent police officer. But there came a point where I think I maybe just ran out of steam, ran out of options and thought, In-Person (19:03) I felt overlooked, I have to say. And then I think that was part of the process for me leaving. I tried to be as successful and as decent as I possibly could, and I really enjoyed my job and I'd volunteered to do everything I possibly could. And I really believe that I was an excellent police officer, but there came a point where I think I maybe I just ran out of steam, ran out of options and thought, si sapsford (19:25) you know, you have an epiphany, I need a change here, I've been doing this for 20 years. In-Person (19:25) you you have an epiphany, I need a change here. I've been doing this for 20 years. si sapsford (19:30) And also looming is the threat of some serious mental health problems because all around me people that been in as long as I had were developing post traumatic stress disorder, they've on the wrong department for too long, exposed to some seriously... In-Person (19:30) And also looming is the threat of some serious mental health problems because all around me, people that have been in as long as I had were developing post-traumatic stress disorder. They'd on the wrong department for too long, exposed to some seriously si sapsford (19:46) nasty, awful tragedies day after day after day and that impacts you and I've been lucky that I'd escaped that In-Person (19:46) nasty, awful tragedies day after day after day. And then that impacts you. And I'd been lucky that I'd escaped that si sapsford (19:53) and so I thought I'm going to quit while I'm ahead. It's interesting though that you know in your early days and throughout your life you know you were prepared to stand up and step in for all of those things and yet on a more personal level in the police force itself that you didn't really stand up for yourself and I do agree In-Person (19:54) And so I thought I'm going to quit while I'm ahead. It's interesting though that in your early days and throughout your life, you were prepared to stand up and step in for all of those things. And yet, you on a more personal level in the police force itself. You didn't really stand up for yourself. And I do agree that that is what you did. Yeah, it is what you did. In any job. si sapsford (20:11) that is what you did. Yeah, it is what you did. In any job, there was an acceptance of that, that this is how things are and it wouldn't perhaps even occur to you to make complaints at that point. Well, it wouldn't have done me any favors. I wouldn't have progressed. In-Person (20:17) was an acceptance of that, this is how things are and it perhaps even occur to you to make complaints at that point? Well it wouldn't have done me any favors, I wouldn't have progressed any quicker, any further, any better. I think I would have likely found wouldn't. For example, was doing an attachment to CID very early on in my probation. si sapsford (20:29) any quicker, any further, any better. I think I would have likely found I wouldn't. For example, I was doing an attachment to CID very early on in my probation and I was based at Didcot in South Oxfordshire which I loved and then I went on a CID attachment and... In-Person (20:40) And I was based at Didcot in South Oxfordshire, which I loved. And then I went on a CID attachment. And detective, he was just a detective constable. I'd gone out with him for the day. We were visiting a prison. It was female prison, and we were doing a prison visit. And at the end of the day, we had a fun day. It was interesting. And we came back, and this detective said to my sergeant, thanks for giving me George. She was the best blowjob I've ever had. and, and, si sapsford (20:48) The detective, he was just a detective constable, I got out with him for the day, we were visiting a prison, a female prison and we were doing a prison visit and at the end of the day, we had a fun day, it was interesting and we came back and this detective said to my sergeant, thanks for giving me George, she was the best blotard I've ever had he In-Person (21:05) He laughed, the sergeant laughed at the time I was just... si sapsford (21:06) laughed, the sergeant laughed at the time I was just... In-Person (21:09) I don't really remember what I felt at that moment. But then my sergeant went home, talked to his wife, he was newly promoted and the wife said, what the hell, you should have said something, clearly. So he comes back the next day and said, we're going to go and speak to the inspector about this because I should have said something that was completely inappropriate. Well, he's your superior, he should have said something, but sometimes we're taken by surprise. yes. si sapsford (21:09) I don't really remember what I felt at that moment. But then my son went home, talked to his wife, he was newly promoted and the wife said, what the hell, you should have said something clearly. So he comes back the next day and said, we're going to go and speak to the inspector about this because I should have said something that was completely inappropriate. Well, he's your superior, he should have said something. But sometimes we're taken by surprise as well, aren't we? Yes. In-Person (21:30) Fair enough. we go to the inspector and the inspector said, how do you want to deal with this? And I said, well, and I think I've been in about six months at this point and I was 23 maybe. So I said, well, he said, will you settle for an apology from Paul, the detective? I said, yeah, that's fine by me. Yeah, absolutely. And I remember thinking, I just want this to go away so I can just carry on. know, anyway, needless to say, an apology wasn't forthcoming. But what did happen was that they refused to have me for the rest of the attachment. si sapsford (21:30) And fair enough. So we go to the inspector and the inspector said, well, how do you want to deal with this? And I said, well, I think I've been in about six months at this point and I was 23 maybe. So I said, well, you said you up an apology from Paul, the detective. I said, yeah, that's fine by me. Yeah, absolutely. And I remember thinking, I just want this to go away so I can just carry on, you know. Anyway, needless to say, an apology wasn't forthcoming. But what did happen was that they refused to have me for the rest of the attachment at Didcot. So I had to go to Abingdon because he didn't want me in the office. So that's what happened. So you get punished? Yeah, exactly. In-Person (21:58) at Didcot, so I had to go to Abingdon because he didn't want me in the office. So that's what happened. he said this terrible thing. punished? Yeah, exactly. So after that, I went on to a specialist unit at the High Tech Crime Unit and my job was to look at people's hard drives because it was about 2003 and it was the start of a national operation looking into indecent images of children, child pornography. si sapsford (22:07) Exactly. So after that I went on to a specialist unit at the High Tech Crime Unit and my job was to look at people's hard drives because it was about 2003 and it was the start of a national operation looking into indecent images of children's child pornography that people were being found to have on their computers. In-Person (22:26) that people were being found to have on their computers. si sapsford (22:30) And what was interesting about that was I was looking at data, looking at hard drives and also putting material together for warrants. And we were going out and arresting normal people for the first time. And when I say normal people, mean criminals In-Person (22:30) And what was interesting about that was I was looking at data, looking at hard drives and also putting material together for warrants. And we were going out and arresting normal people for the first time. And when I say normal people, I mean criminals. si sapsford (22:43) looked like husbands and teachers and... In-Person (22:43) looked like husbands and teachers and wives and heads of businesses and heads of police in some respect. But when I started there, was a big department. There were lots of really big detectives. mean, know, high ranking detectives. It quite an intimidating place to be in. Again, I was one of few females there. si sapsford (22:47) wives and heads of businesses and heads of police in some respects. But when I started there, was a big department, there were lots of really big detectives, mean, know, high ranking detectives, it quite an intimidating place to be in. Again, I was one of few females there. In-Person (23:07) And I remember on the day three, day four, this guy said to me, si sapsford (23:07) I remember on the day three, day four, this guy said to me, what's your name? This is a cafeteria bit, I'm making a cup of tea. What's your name? I said Georgina. And he said, my grandma's cat's called Georgina. If I tickled you under the chin will you fall on your back with your legs open? He said to me. In-Person (23:11) What's your name? This is in a cafeteria bit while making a cup of tea. What's your name? I said Georgina. And he said, my grandma's cat's called Georgina. If I tickle you under the chin, will you fall on your back with your legs open? He said to me. si sapsford (23:25) So obviously after the blowjob incident and several other bits and pieces that have been said between I'm going to say 1999 and 2003 I wasn't having any of it by this point so I went to complain to my supervisor In-Person (23:26) So obviously after the blowjob instance and several other bits and pieces that have been said between I'm going to say 1999 and 2003, I wasn't having any of it by this point. So I went to complain to my supervisor. si sapsford (23:40) I think it was a Friday or a Thursday or something like that and he said absolutely not standing for this so he went to speak to the supervisor of the chap that said this to me and then on Monday morning I come into the office and they said that this person who'd made this comment had tried to kill himself for the weekend and so of course my name was just I was just dirt and that was the end of it you know I mean obviously there's a lot going on with this chap In-Person (23:41) And think it was a Friday or a Thursday or something like that. And he said, absolutely, we're not standing for this. So he went to speak to the supervisor of the chap that said this to me. And then on Monday morning, I come into the office and they said that this person who'd made this comment had tried to kill himself at the weekend. And so of course, my name was just, I was just dirt and that was the end of it. I mean, obviously there's a lot going on with this chap, si sapsford (24:07) you I'd said something and I'm not saying that me reporting him for saying that dreadful thing about me was what was the trigger for him trying to kill himself at the weekend I've got to hope there was more going on than that but that wasn't resolved either so you put up with a lot as a woman and I think that I felt like that went on for probably 10 years so from I joined in 98 until 2010 maybe In-Person (24:07) You know, I'd said something and I'm not saying that me reporting him for saying that dreadful thing about me was what was the trigger for him trying to kill himself at the weekend. I've got to hope there was more going on than that. But that wasn't resolved either, So you put up with a lot as a woman and I think that I felt like that went on for probably 10 years. So from I joined in 98 for up until 2010, maybe. si sapsford (24:33) Gosh, you know, you're sort of under two kinds of pressure, pressure with the job itself and pressure within In-Person (24:36) job itself. si sapsford (24:39) from the way, well, the misogyny that you're talking about as well. wonder which sort of affected your decision to leave more, because obviously, you know, if you're sort of dealing with child pornography and things as well, that's, that's going to leave a long-term impression and damage in its own right, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, there was a it was a very... In-Person (24:41) Yes, yes. I wonder which sort of affected your decision to leave more because obviously, you know, you're sort of dealing with child pornography and things as well, that's, that's going to leave a long-term impression and that's in its own right, Yes, yeah. I mean, there was a it was a very, I mean, the police was fantastic. It's so much fun, I can't tell you. You know, when you're in your twenties and you're working, si sapsford (24:58) I mean the police was fantastic, I've been so much fun I can't tell you. Yeah, when you're in your twenties and you're working. In-Person (25:05) you really hope that people of that generation today get to experience that. si sapsford (25:05) You really hope that people of that generation today get to experience that kind of fun in a working environment. You've got a very, very, very serious job to do. But what comes from working for the armed forces, I imagine, or for the NHS, or for the police, or whatever, is that camaraderie, that slightly naff sense of humour. And we did some things that maybe I look back and maybe if I talked about, people would think that that was possibly inappropriate, I'm sure. But I was very, very happy at work. In-Person (25:09) kind of fun in a working environment. You've got a very, very, very serious job to do. But what comes from working for the armed forces, I imagine, or for the NHS, or for the police, FIBA, whatever, is that camaraderie, know, that slightly naff sense of humour. And we did some things that maybe I look back and maybe if I talked about, people would think that that wasn't possibly inappropriate, I'm sure. But I was very, very happy at work. So I think a lot of this stuff, the misogyny, si sapsford (25:35) I a lot of this stuff, misogyny, I was just desperate to get ahead and be taken seriously. I was young. So you let a lot of things go, don't you, in order to have that respect. And how does that then compare to switching to hunted? Well, that's interesting, isn't it? Because hunted is like the police, both in HQ and when I was a ground hunter, because In-Person (25:38) I was just desperate to get ahead and be taken seriously. I was young. So you let a lot of things go, don't you, in order to have that respect. And how does that then compare to switching to hunted? Well, that's interesting, isn't it? Because hunted is like the police, both in HQ and when I was a ground hunter, because it is... si sapsford (26:05) It is entirely populated by alpha females and males. In-Person (26:06) entirely populated by alpha females and males. In order to be considered to be in the ground hunter or hunted HQ team, you have to be brave, hardcore, opinionated, confident, or at least you've certainly got to appear to be all of those things because otherwise you can't get a word in edgeways you want to contribute, so you have to find that tiny gap. si sapsford (26:11) In order to be considered to be in the ground hunter or hunter HQ team, you have to be brave, hardcore, opinionated, confident, or at least you've certainly got to appear to be all of those things because otherwise you can't get a word in edge ways know want to contribute so you have to find that tiny gap to say what you need to say and to get your piece in and there's a lot of stress and pressure. In-Person (26:32) to say what you need to say and to get your piece in. And there's a lot of stress and pressure. si sapsford (26:36) So it's comparable but by this point when I'm in 100 HQ I'm 51, you know I was 48 I think when I started or something and so I've earned my steal if you like I'm not very good at being treated badly so if anybody attempts to bully me or criticize me unfairly in my view then In-Person (26:37) So it's comparable. But by this point, when I'm in 100 HQ, I'm 51. I was 48, I think, when I started or something. And so I've earned my steal, if you like. being treated badly. So if anybody attempts to bully me or criticize me unfairly in my view, then. si sapsford (26:59) they're gonna get it in terms of a short shrift and I'm gonna stick up for In-Person (27:00) they're going to get it in terms of short shrift and I'm going to stick up for myself. si sapsford (27:04) I spent too long sort of battling through the police and it taught me that I'm not going to take any nonsense and certainly that element of my character comes across in Hunted I think. Yeah I think it does In-Person (27:05) I spent too long sort of battling through the police and it taught me that I'm not going to take any nonsense and certainly that element of my character comes across in Hunted I think. Yeah I think it does. si sapsford (27:16) but for me I think what's important is you used to have to work your way up and I think if you're going to get to a point where you're leading the team from the top you need to know what it feels like to be on the ground you're doing the chasing you're doing the driving you're doing the investigation and the HQ are doing the research and profile In-Person (27:16) But for me, think what's important is you used to have to work your way up. And I think if you're going to get to a point where you're leading the team from the top, you need to know what it feels like to be on the ground. You're doing the chasing, you're doing the driving, you're doing the investigation. And the HQ are doing the research and profiling si sapsford (27:36) these people and working with the cyber teams and everything else to work out In-Person (27:36) these people and working with the cyber teams and everything else to work out. si sapsford (27:41) very cleverly what the person's next move is and then there's that communication between Hunter HQ and the ground hunters so I think if you've been a ground hunter and then now you're in Hunter HQ you've nailed every angle. And did you enjoy the ground team? In-Person (27:41) very cleverly what the person's next move is. And then there's that communication between Hunter HQ and the ground hunters. So I think if you've been a ground hunter and then now you're in Hunter HQ, you've nailed every angle. And did you enjoy the ground team? si sapsford (27:58) more or just the same as where you are now? What are the differences there? Well, the difference being in 100 HQ is you're closer to the heart in my view of the programme in the sense that you are seeing... In-Person (28:01) Well, the difference being in a hunted HQ is you're closest to the heart, in my view, of the programme in the sense that you are seeing, si sapsford (28:13) you're part of the anticipating the next move of the fugitives. It's more planning, it's more strategising, it's more operational, whereas you are reactive as a ground hunter. In-Person (28:13) you're part of anticipating the next move of the fugitives. It's more planning, it's more strategising. it's more operational, whereas you are reactive as a ground hunter. si sapsford (28:23) You do get to play some part in your investigation and of course you get to do some surveillance and so there are some sexier bits to being a ground hunter. In-Person (28:23) you do get to play some part in your investigation and of course you get to do some surveillance and so there are some sexier bits to being a ground hunter. But ultimately I prefer to be busier, I prefer to have my finger closer to the and I'm closer to the action. for example there was a second program of this series was aired last night and we intercepted a phone call si sapsford (28:31) But ultimately, I prefer to be busier. I prefer to have my finger closer to the button. And I'm closer to the action. for example, there was a second program of this series was aired last night. And we intercepted a phone call. In-Person (28:50) between one of the fugitives, it was Amy Dowden. si sapsford (28:50) between one of fugitives, was Amy Dabham who's one of those girls from Strictly, fabulous human being incidentally, still has her own current battle with cancer. She's so brave, genuinely beautiful individual, but she calls her husband and of course we have the power to intercept phone calls. We don't have everybody on intercept, so we have to make a decision. We can't intercept everybody's phone calls, but it will be a very real discussion every day around In-Person (28:52) who's one of the girls from Strictly Fabulous Human Being, incidentally, still has her own current battle with cancer. She's so brave, genuinely beautiful individual, but she calls her husband. And of course we have the power to intercept phone calls. We don't have everybody on intercept, so we have to make a decision. We can't intercept everybody's phone calls, but it will be a very real discussion every day around... si sapsford (29:19) who we think In-Person (29:19) whom we think is most likely to come into play with those fugitives. And at that point, we sent a team to Amy Dowden's husband just to talk to him, which is very standard. Have you heard from your wife? What's going on? Let's have a look at your phone. You know, to get an idea if somebody's lying, are they part of a process that's coming in? And so we had a look in his car and two of the ground hunters see that there's medication in there with her name on it. So why has he got medication in the car? si sapsford (29:20) most likely to come into play with those fugitives. At that point we sent a team to Amy Dowden's husband just to talk to him which is very standard. Have you heard from your wife? What's going on? Let's have a look at your phone. You know, to get an idea if somebody's lying. Are they part of a process that's coming in? And so we had a look in his car and two of the ground hunters see that there's medication in there with her name on it. So why has he got medication in the car? And so we make the assumption that that's because he needs to take it to her. She's got cancer. In-Person (29:46) And so we make the assumption that that's because he needs to take it to her. She's got cancer. si sapsford (29:51) You'll see in the programme that we follow her into the hospital, which may sound oppressive but actually she knew that that was going to happen and had agreed to it by the way. So we made that decision that Ben is the person we're going to put on insert because clearly medication is going to make its way to Amy so they are going to need. In-Person (29:51) You'll see in the program that we follow her into the hospital, which may sound oppressive, but actually she knew that that was going to happen and had agreed to it, by the way. But so we made that decision that Ben is the person we're going to put on intercept because clearly medication is going to make its way to Amy. So they are going to meet. They're not thinking about that. And we don't automatically have that power, but we... si sapsford (30:11) They're not thinking about that. We don't automatically have that power, but we In-Person (30:16) bid for it because we replicate the powers of the state. So that's what we do. We intercept a phone call she's used one of her celebrity associates, Craig Revel Hallward from Strictly's phone to call her husband. And then what follows is an exchange where she says, this is where Can you pick me up from this exact location? So we get gifts thrown at us in Hunter's, which is just genius. si sapsford (30:16) bid for it because we replicate the powers of the state. So that's what we do. We intercept a phone call she's used one of her celebrity associates, Craig Revel Hallward from Strictly's phone to call her husband. And then what follows is an exchange where she says, this is where I am. Can you pick me up from this exact location? So we get gifts thrown at us in hands. which is just genius when you're involved in all that and then you can very quickly respond with where are my ground-hunter teams I've got this one this one this one off you go how long is your traveling time we can catch them and that is very real and it's very exciting to be part of all of those things happen In-Person (30:41) when you're involved in all that and then you can very quickly respond with where are my Grand Hunter teams? I've got this one, this one, this one, off you go, how long is your traveling time? We can catch them. And that is very real and it's very exciting to be part of all of those things happen. si sapsford (30:55) the human element. Is that predominantly what gives people away you're calling because you need your medication. But overall, would you say that is the greatest asset that you have? People's vulnerablility absolutely. And ultimately, as far as Hunter is concerned, people cannot stray too far from their own network. In-Person (30:55) the human element. Is that predominantly what gives people away calling for your medication. Yes. Overall, is the greatest asset that you have. It's just valuability. Absolutely. And ultimately, as far as Hunter is concerned, people cannot stray too far from their own network. si sapsford (31:15) They just can't. In-Person (31:15) They just can't. si sapsford (31:18) You know, if people are married or they're close to family and friends, that's where they feel most supported and most comfortable. And so you will see that they may venture away from their hometown or from valued friendships and family members, but they'll always come back. In-Person (31:18) If people are married or they're close to family and friends, that's where they feel most supported and most comfortable. And so you will see that they may venture away from their hometown or from valued friendships and family members, but they'll always come back. So it's just a case of us anticipating when they return. And they always, always do. They can't help but reach out to husbands, boyfriends, mothers, fathers, friends, just every single time. What would be really interesting was if a fugitive team were to go on the run and they relied solely on the comfort of strangers. si sapsford (31:37) So it's just a case of us anticipating when they return. And they always, always do. They can't help but reach out to husbands, boyfriends, mothers, fathers, friends, just every single time. What would be really interesting was if a fugitive team were to go on the run and they relied solely on the comfort of strangers. Do you actually have to rely on someone? You can't just sort of get a two-man tent and go and hide in the woods. Well, I that wouldn't give great TV, obviously. Exactly. Are there rules like that about what people can sure that there are some fugitive rules. I'm not privy to what they are because we are, it's them and us and seriously. In-Person (32:00) Do you actually have to rely on someone? You can't just sort of get a two-man tent and go and hide in the woods. Well, I... that wouldn't give great teams... Yeah, exactly. Are there rules like that about Well, I'm sure that there are some fugitive rules. I'm not privy to what they are because we are... it's them and us. And seriously, si sapsford (32:19) From our point of view, what happens in the office, it's In-Person (32:19) from our point of view, what happens in the office, si sapsford (32:23) very real, it's not scripted. People think, know, it's all very fake. You see criticism on Twitter and... In-Person (32:22) It's very real, it's not scripted. People think, you know, it's all very fake. You see criticism on Twitter and si sapsford (32:29) It really isn't for us. you might at very, very beginning be told that this is what you're about to face and you may have a line to start the program. But after that, it's up to you. It's entirely up to you. So it's not fake at all. In-Person (32:29) it really isn't for us. is, you might, the very, very beginning, be told that this is what you're about to face and you may have a line to start the program. But after that, it's up to you. It's entirely up to you. So it's not fake at all. we got a van and we had the power to send text messages. So say, for example, we were looking for you and Si Sapsford is in Harrogate. We think you're in Harrogate. We don't know whereabouts in Harrogate you are, but we could send a text to everybody in Harrogate at great expense, incidentally, a text to everyone in Harrogate saying we're looking for fugitive Si Sapsford. si sapsford (32:45) We got a van and we had the power to send text messages. So say for example we were looking for you and Sysapsford is in Harrogate. We think you're in Harrogate. We don't know why abouts in Harrogate you are but we could send a text to everybody in Harrogate at great expense. Text to everybody in Harrogate saying we're looking for a fugitive Sysapsford In-Person (33:07) description last seen, reward on offer for her location. so much that we can do. Very, very difficult to stay hidden. mean, I know you have to move. I know there are rules around movement. Otherwise it would make very, very dull television. but yeah. si sapsford (33:07) description last seen reward on offer for her location. there's so much that we can do, very, very difficult to stay hidden. mean, I know you have to move. I know there are rules around movement. Otherwise it would make very, very dull television. yeah. But how does Shine TV have access to all of this technology In-Person (33:26) Does Shine TV have access to all of this technology that the si sapsford (33:30) Well they replicate powers of the state and it's not something I can really talk about for obvious reasons but you know when you come on the programme as a fugitive you really and truly sign over your lives. We have your phone in our possession, we have laptops, have In-Person (33:31) Well, they replicate powers of the state and it's not something I can really talk about for obvious reasons but you know when you come on the program as a fugitive you really and truly sign over your lives. We have your phone in our possession, we have laptops, we have... si sapsford (33:49) your all of your tags for social media all of your accounts and we are very very closely scrutinizing all of that and metadata and meta titles from photographs are used to determine where somebody frequents i mean we've found we've looked at three people's photographs and found for example a pub that this person really likes and we found out what the pub is just from the photographs it's unbelievable In-Person (33:49) your, all of your tags for social media, all of your accounts, and we are very, very closely scrutinizing all of that. Metadata, meta titles from photographs are used to determine where somebody frequents, I mean, we've looked at three people's photographs and found, for example, a pub that this person really likes, and we found out what the pub is just from the photographs. I mean, it's unbelievable. si sapsford (34:16) what our cyber team and the In-Person (34:16) what our cyber team and the si sapsford (34:18) the OSINT team can do. really is we've got some very, very clever people. It's far cleverer than you can imagine, to be honest. It's quite mind blowing, really. But they let themselves down the fugitives because... they'll have the phone in and they'll just delete our photographs. We don't want them to see, we don't want the Hunter 2 to see our photographs. But then they don't enter their deleted folder, for example. And we have to, we look at it all and they've signed to say that we can. yeah. In-Person (34:18) OSINT team can do. It really is, we've got some very, very clever people. It's far cleverer than you can imagine, to be honest. It's quite mind blowing, really. But they let themselves down the fugitives because, so they'll hand the phone in and think, we'll just delete our photographs. We don't want them to see, we don't want the Hunter team to see our photographs, but then they don't empty their deleted folder, for example. And we have to, we look at it all and they've signed to say that we can, so yeah. si sapsford (34:45) Gosh, I wonder sometimes why people... In-Person (34:48) people volunteer to do this. What is it that people want when they're doing hunting? Is it just a bit of adventure? si sapsford (34:48) volunteer to do this? What is it that people want when they're doing hunting? it just a bit of adventure? In-Person (34:55) Well, obviously at the civilian program si sapsford (34:55) Well obviously the civillian programme In-Person (34:57) there is a big reward at the end of it. I mean, it's very, very stressful. It's a hard process, but if you're lucky and clever and successful, there is a reward. There's a hundred thousand pounds or a share of a hundred thousand pounds possibly some fame, some extra followers, some si sapsford (34:57) there is a big reward at the end of it. I mean, it's very, very stressful. It's a hard process. But if you're lucky and clever and successful, there is a reward. There's a hundred thousand pounds or a share of a hundred thousand pounds possibly some fame, some extra followers, press, In-Person (35:12) Maybe it's a challenge, people are overcoming something. They want to do it like a bucket list thing. People are going to climb Kilimanjaro or wherever and they want to go on Hunted it see if they can make it with their best friends. So lots of different motivations. si sapsford (35:12) Maybe it's a challenge, people overcoming something. They want to do it, you know, like a bucket list thing. People are going to climb Kilimanjaro or wherever and they want to go on hunt and see if they can make it with their best friends. So lots of different motivations. And the celebrities? Well, the celebrities are different because the celebrities are doing it for standards of cancer. In-Person (35:27) celebrities? Well the celebrities are different because the celebrities are doing it for Stand Up to Cancer. So I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday and she said I really I thought the first episode was really really good but I wish there were... si sapsford (35:33) So I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday and she said, I really, thought the first episode was really, good, but I wish there were, I wish that people were slightly more famous. And I said, well. In-Person (35:40) I wish that people were slightly more famous. And I said, well, si sapsford (35:44) What's really interesting is that these celebrities are giving up their time and they're waiving their fee So they're committing to two weeks slightly more I imagine of working for nothing Well, not for nothing. They're giving their fee for stand-up to cancer So inevitably that's going to attract someone who has a very personal attachment to cancer their own story a story of a family member that you know whole cancer means something to them. So this program In-Person (35:44) what's really interesting is that these celebrities are giving up their time and they're waiving their fee. So they're committing to two weeks, slightly more I imagine, of working for nothing, well not for nothing, they're giving their fee for stand-up to cancer. So inevitably that's gonna attract someone who has a very personal attachment to cancer, their own story, a story of a family member. know, whole cancer means something to them. si sapsford (36:09) means something to them. Not everyone's going to give up two weeks of their life In-Person (36:09) means something to them. Not everyone's going to give up two weeks of their life. si sapsford (36:15) You've got to be free, you've got to be fit, you've got to be up for a phenomenal challenge and it is very stressful. I was talking to one of the celebrities at the screening on Tuesday, a girl called Scarlett Douglas who's just gorgeous person and she said she found it very, very stressful. In-Person (36:15) You've got to be free, you've got to be fit, you've got to be up for a phenomenal challenge and it is very stressful. I was talking to one of the celebrities at the screening on Tuesday, a girl called Scarlett Douglas who's just gorgeous person and she said she found it very very stressful. Others, there's a couple of love-Islanders on this series and they were just bouncing off the walls with Glee. They loved it. It was a fantastic experience. But nerve-wracking. You are paranoid. We are closer than you can imagine we might be. And they just fail to anticipate, despite having some of them being fans of the show and watching it, because it's been going for 11 years now. si sapsford (36:31) Others, there's a couple of love-hangers on this series and they were just bouncing off the walls with Glee. They loved it. was a fantastic experience. But nerve-racking. You are paranoid. We are closer than you can imagine we might be. they just fail to anticipate, despite having some of them being fans of show and watching it, because we've been going for 11 years now, you'd think that they knew, they would know by now that we can intercept phone calls or they'd... In-Person (36:54) You'd think that they knew, they would know by now that we can intercept phone calls or that si sapsford (36:57) that we can look into their Facebook accounts or social media accounts or we can track their movement with cell masks and all that sort of stuff. But we have a very, very, very near miss in last night's episode when somebody, Scarlett and Stuart Douglas, appeared on live television, And we know exactly where they're filming. In-Person (36:57) we can look into their Facebook accounts or social media accounts or we can track their movement with cell mass and all that sort of stuff. But you know, we do, we had a very, very, very near miss in last night's episode when somebody, Scarlett and Stuart Douglas appeared on live television, And we know exactly where they're filming. si sapsford (37:17) the BBC studios in White City. massive. In-Person (37:17) you know, in the BBC studios in White City, it's massive. we've got a war table in Hunted where you can sort of, you can move it around. You can see exits to each building. We can get the drones above. We know they're in there, they're appearing on live telly, we know the show is live. We can hear them saying if the Hunters arrive, we've got to go. si sapsford (37:20) we've got a war table in Hunted where you can sort of, you can move it around. You can see exits to each building. We can get the drones We know they're in there. There are people on live telling, we know the show is live. We can hear them saying if the Hunters arrive, we've got to go. And you can hear the presenters saying, it's okay, we're gonna let you out a different exit. And we're watching it in HQ, so we're sending a team into London. In-Person (37:35) And you can hear the presenters saying, it's okay, we're going to let you out a different exit. And we're watching it in HQ. So we're sending a team into London. we, I mean, they literally come out in a vehicle and we've got, we've got hunters opening the doors and luckily for them, the driver, the chauffeur, whoever it is, the taxi, there's a lot of the doors we can't get in. I mean, it's really and genuinely that close. si sapsford (37:43) And we, I mean, they literally come out in a vehicle and we've got, we've got hunters opening the doors and luckily for them, the driver, chauffeur, whoever it is, the taxi, there's a lot of the doors we can't get in. I mean, it's really and genuinely that close. do you think the celebrities, maybe they are more aware about giving good TV and that, part of the fun for them is that risk of getting caught and, sort of. In-Person (37:59) is maybe they are more aware about giving good TV. Part of the fun for them is that risk of getting caught. sort of, si sapsford (38:10) I don't know if you get more viewers, maybe more for charity, it's... Yeah, well, I mean, who doesn't want to be part of good television? In-Person (38:10) I don't know, you get more viewers and maybe more for charity. but it's... Yeah, well, mean, who doesn't want to be part of good television? If you're going to do something, whatever it is it's using to do, whatever medium you want to do, it's the best of your ability. And although you might have your heart going and your adrenaline's... si sapsford (38:17) If you're going to do something, whatever it is you're using to do, whatever medium you want to it's the best of your ability. And although you might have your heart going and the adrenaline's In-Person (38:25) know, rushing through your body. Ultimately, you look back on that scene, because we were living it at the time, and I remember being on the radio sending the Hunter team and thinking, my goodness, one of them's going to get run over. It was that close. It really is as close as it looks. you can see from their perspective, They managed to get away in the taxi. si sapsford (38:26) rushing through your body, ultimately you look back on that scene because we were living it at the time and I remember being on the radio sending the Hunter team and thinking, my goodness, what am I going get rid of here? It was that close. It really is as close as it then you can see from their perspective they managed to get away in the taxi and In-Person (38:42) you know, it's very, very real. that's what I love about the show is it really isn't that isn't fake. si sapsford (38:42) You know, it's very very real and that's what I love about the show is it really isn't that isn't fake It really isn't people think it is but genuinely isn't we are very Switched on and we've got some very very clever people and we can act very quickly. So And what sort of feedback do you get from whether they're celebrities or just you know In-Person (38:48) It really isn't. People think it is, but genuinely it isn't. We are very switched on and we've got some very, very clever people and we can act very quickly. So. what sort of feedback do you get from whether they're or just, you know... si sapsford (39:04) ordinary people afterwards? They say it's sort of an amazing Experience and change the way they think about things and how you do things In-Person (39:04) people after, they say it's an amazing experience and change the way they think about things and how you do things? I think I spoke to this set of celebrities last Tuesday, most of them, not all of them, and the Love Islanders who are younger and have a huge social media following enjoyed it because they had lots of tricks on their sleeve, they loved mucking about, was just the fact that they were si sapsford (39:12) I I spoke to this set of celebrities last Tuesday, most of them, not all of them. And the Love Islanders, who are younger and have a huge social media following, enjoyed it because they had lots of tricks up their sleeve. They loved mucking about how it was just... The fact that they were... They weren't getting paid but they were doing this and these jolly japs, the running and the chasing. was just, they were just like children. I mean, we were calling them all sorts. In HQ it was terrible. The chief was calling them terrible names. But it's all, we don't mean it, incidentally. But then you've got others. They're two comedians who are brilliant comedians, honestly. It's so funny, both them, Jen Brister and Laura Smith, In-Person (39:33) They weren't getting paid, but they were doing this and these jolly japs, the running and the chasing. was just, they were just like children. mean, we, we, were calling them all sorts in HQ. It was terrible. The chief was calling them terrible names, but it's all, we don't mean it instantly. but then you've got others. They're two comedians who are brilliant comedians, honestly. It's so funny. Both of them, Jen Brister and Laura Smith just. si sapsford (39:59) just cool as cucumbers. Really, really cool. Really would like to be Laura Smith's friend. In-Person (39:59) Cool as cucumbers, really, really cool. Really would like to be Laura Smith's friend if that were at all possible in different worlds, she's that cool. But they were at a comedy gig in Brighton, and I can talk about this because this was on the show yesterday, they were at a comedy gig in Brighton, Jen Brister was appearing, and they decide that they are going to make loads of those masks with Jen's face on. si sapsford (40:03) if that were at all possible in different worlds she's that cool. But they were at a comedy game, Brighton, and I can talk about this because this was on the show yesterday, were at comedy game, Brighton, Jen Brister was appearing, they decide that they are going to make loads of those masks with Jen's face on we know that she's going to appear at this comedy festival because on her website, they have commitments that they are contracted to appear in the celebrities, they may be giving their time to In-Person (40:22) we know that she's going to appear at this comedy festival because on her website, they have commitments that they are contracted to appear in the celebrities. They may be giving their time to si sapsford (40:30) us for free but they are committed to these comedy festivals or live stand-up appearances so we knew they were going to be there so of course we surround the place and and then how are those we're going to get out so they make a load of masks they get mask printed of her face so she gets I don't think we're 1700 people at this comedy festival In-Person (40:30) us for free, but they are committed to these comedy festivals or live stand-up appearances. So we knew they were going to be there. So of course we surround the place and then how else are we going get out? So they make a load of masks, they get masks printed of her face. So she gets, I don't think it 1,700 people at this comedy festival. si sapsford (40:48) so she gets about a thousand made and after the show you've got a thousand Jen bristers walking out including her and Laura in the masks and how are we gonna In-Person (40:48) So she gets about a thousand maid and after the show you've got a thousand Jembristers walking out including her and Laura in the masks. And how are we going to si sapsford (40:57) find out which ones are our fugitives. So that was really fun. I really enjoyed that. We nearly got them as well because obviously we're clever enough to think, okay they've got a mascot but we know what they have on their feet or we can recognise their gait or da da da, we're looking for all sorts. In-Person (40:57) find out which ones are our fugitives? that was really fun. I really enjoyed that and there was a chill. We nearly got them as well because obviously we're clever enough to think, okay they've got a mask on but we know what they have on their feet or we can recognise their gait or da da da. We're looking for all sorts. si sapsford (41:14) yeah, so some really good moments in Hunted I think that are clever. And there's always something fresh, there's always some... In-Person (41:14) Yeah, so some really good moments in Hunted, I think, that are clever. And there's always something fresh. There's always something si sapsford (41:22) something new. mean, the launch of series was very mission impossible. It really was. I got chased through London. mean, genius stuff. How they get permission to do it, I don't know. But being part of it is extremely exciting. In-Person (41:22) new. mean, the launch of series was very mission impossible. It really was. I had a helicopter chase through London. mean, genius stuff. How they get permission to do it, I don't know. But being part of it is extremely exciting. si sapsford (41:37) Yeah, it does sound that. Yeah. I like that. And I guess it's sounding to me like, you know, people do try and plan ahead. you know, especially the celebrities, if they've got these commitments, they have to plan and presumably they're really in sort of enjoy and get on board with that as well. Yeah. Well, I mean, like I said, do their best, And some of them have got kids and, hunted us like everything really now striving to In-Person (41:52) sort of enjoy and get on board with that. yeah. Well, I mean, like I said, everyone wants to do their best, And some of them have got kids and, Hunted is like everything really now striving to get, si sapsford (42:04) know, that are younger, a younger audience, target audience that's younger, that is In-Person (42:04) viewers that are younger, a younger audience, target audience that's younger. That is The holy grail, I should say, of television viewing. want the younger audience, the younger audience. mean, because young people don't really watch much television. So if you can get a percentage of that audience, you you're going to get another commission. you know, we might get another commission. We get people talking about it. It sort of extends the show. I mean, it's been going for 11 years as Hunted and it's been BAFTA nominated twice, I think, before. Has it won a BAFTA? I'm not sure. But certainly amazing people working to make this television program si sapsford (42:08) The holy grail, I should say, of television viewing, we want the younger audience. The younger audience, mean, young people don't really watch much television, if you can get a percentage of that audience, you you're going to get another commission. We might get another commission, we'll get people talking about it, it sort of extends the show. I mean, it's been going for 11 years, that's haunted, and it's been BAFTA nominated twice, I think, before. I think one of BAFTA, I'm not sure, but certainly amazing people working to make this television programme In-Person (42:38) just si sapsford (42:38) just In-Person (42:39) better and better and better and better with fresh ideas and new ideas and to extend its life essentially. So this series is really and truly great. So we've talked a lot about the relationship or not relationship between you and the Hunters. So in the team itself, you are under a lot of pressure there, you? si sapsford (42:39) better and better and better and better with fresh ideas and new ideas and to extend its life essentially. So this series is really and truly great. So we've talked a lot about, you know, the relationship or not relationship between you and the hunted people. So in the team itself, you you are under a lot of pressure there, aren't you? In-Person (43:01) is there a lot of tension? it that stressful? So we were filming last year and it was a civilian hunted. And there was a couple called Sean and Marie they were called from Bristol. si sapsford (43:01) is there a lot of tension? it that stressful? so we were filming last year and it was civilian hunted. And there was a couple called forgot, Sean and Marie they were called from Bristol. In-Person (43:12) And they were in the Bristol area, classic, they'd gone... si sapsford (43:13) and they were in the Bristol area, classic, they'd gone In-Person (43:17) home or not quite home but to some friends who live nearby and they got they'd made the decision to get some walkie-talkies so they they had all of their associates using walkie-talkies which again was something new we spotted it but nevertheless they were able to function and communicate with walkie-talkies avoiding mobile phones obviously anyway there's this piece where we trapped them into a wood and we got si sapsford (43:17) home, not quite home, but to some friends who lived nearby and they'd made the decision to get some walkie talkies so they had all of their associates using walkie talkies which again was something new, we spotted it, but nevertheless they were able to function and communicate with walkie talkies, avoiding mobile phones obviously. Anyway there's this piece where we trapped them into a wood and we got In-Person (43:42) we looked at the we looked at the war table we looked at the map si sapsford (43:42) We looked at the we looked at the war table. We looked at the map and we I was sending grounders in from one side into this ward and into another and then we had a ground hunter and found a bag that dumped a bag with their mic in it and Essentially what happened is it was a really really hot day I'm excruciating hot and it wasn't we had a drone but the drone couldn't stay up for so long. So we lost comms We lost comms with the drone. We lost comms with our some of our hunters and it wasn't possible In-Person (43:45) and I was sending grounders in from one side into this ward and into another. And then we had a ground hunter had found a bag, they dumped a bag with their mic in it. And essentially what happened is it was a really, really hot day, mean, excruciatingly hot. And it wasn't, we had a drone, but the drone couldn't stay up for so long. So we lost comms. We lost comms with the drone. We lost comms with some of our hunters. And it wasn't possible si sapsford (44:12) for me to see exactly where they were because... In-Person (44:12) for me to see exactly where they were because si sapsford (44:16) We weren't able to track them so the technology wasn't working quite in the way that we wanted to and we were told to keep sending them forward, keep sending them in this direction. thought one of our fugitive at least was very close to one of our fugitive teams and it just went on for too long and they were climbing uphill the ground, climbing over fences, it was really really hot, they were getting very dehydrated and they were asking for help In-Person (44:16) know, weren't able to track them, so the technology wasn't working quite in the way that we wanted to. And we were told to keep sending them forward, keep sending them in this direction. We thought one of our fugitives, at least, was very close to one of our fugitive teams. And it just went on for too long. And they were climbing uphill the ground, climbing over fences. It was really, really hot. They were getting very dehydrated. And they were asking for help. si sapsford (44:41) So I had the drone telling me one thing and then I had somebody else shouting at me to do something else and it all became too much. And at the heart of my concerns was the fact that these are friends of mine, ground hunters, who were getting hot and dehydrated and I wanted to stop. I just wanted to stop it because I felt I was losing control of the situation. In-Person (44:41) So we had the drone telling me one thing and then I had somebody else shouting at me to do something else and it all became too much. And at the heart of my concerns was the fact that these are friends of mine, ground hunters, who were getting hot and dehydrated and I wanted to stop. I just wanted to stop it because I felt I was losing control of the situation. si sapsford (45:00) And I got very, very stressed about that indeed. Because your job is to find the fugitives, your job is to send these ground hunters In-Person (45:00) And I got very, very stressed about that indeed because your job is to find the fugitives, your job is to send these ground hunters who are fit si sapsford (45:09) what fit and their In-Person (45:11) and their production crews behind them, the camera guys and the sound guys And it just all, I just sort of lost control of it a little bit through no fault of my own. But I got very stressed about that. That was a stressful moment, but that's unusual to be honest. I think we got let down by technology, so we had to withdraw in the end and start again the next day. But yeah, it's very stressful. I guess those sort of situations are to happen. si sapsford (45:12) production crews behind them, the camera guys and the sound guys, And it just sort of lost control of it a little bit. Through and through, felt to my own. But I got very stressed about that. That was a stressful moment. that's unusual, to be honest. I think we got let down by technology, so we had to withdraw in the end and start again the next day. But yeah, it's very stressful. I guess those sort of situations are bound to happen, aren't they? In-Person (45:37) it seems like the kind of program that would franchise out Yeah, has. mean, Hunted is all around the world. when we were filming rather excitingly last year, we were... si sapsford (45:37) it seems like the kind of program that would franchise out yeah, has. We've hunted this all around the world. when we were filming rather excitingly last year, we were... Filming, don't know if it was Celebrity Hands and Others, but it was the summer last year anyway, a big American broadcasting production company. In-Person (45:45) Filming, don't know if was Celebrity Hunter or The Civil Union, it was the summer last year anyway, a big American broadcasting production company. si sapsford (45:55) And they turned up and they filmed a teaser or a sizzle which was just like a ray talking to us, a couple of lines. the idea was that they were going to pitch to, In-Person (45:55) And they turned up and they filmed a teaser or a sizzle, which was just like a ray talking to us, a couple of lines. And the idea was that they were gonna pitch to... si sapsford (46:06) HBO maybe, somebody like Peacock looking to pitch to HBO for a, hunted with American celebrities. So you can't film a hunt in America because all of the ground hunts driving big black SUVs and it would all be tooth-threatening. In-Person (46:06) HBO maybe, somebody like Peacock looking to pitch to HBO for a hunted with American celebrities. So you can't film a hunted in America because all of the ground hunts driving big black SUVs and it would all be too threatening. You'd end up getting shot by the police and the running and it just wouldn't work at all. So they thought, the idea was they were going to bring these American celebrities over to England and use our team and our production office. si sapsford (46:22) you'd end up getting shot by the police and the running and it just wouldn't work at all. So they thought the idea was they were going to bring these American celebrities over to England and use our team and our production office and In-Person (46:34) us, hopefully me, and we would be chasing American celebrities around the UK. So I'm really hoping that's going to come off. I mean, it could still come off. These things take forever, but that would be great. Yeah, that would be amazing. But it's sort of quite telling that there's a fear in America of the shootings, si sapsford (46:35) us, hopefully me, and we would be chasing American celebrities around the UK. So I'm really hoping that's going to come up. I mean, it could still come up. These things take forever, but that would be great. Yeah, that would be amazing. of quite telling that a fear in America of the shootings you In-Person (46:52) Yeah, it's the chasing and the black cars and the threat and I think it's big in Europe and know Australian hunted is big as well. So I'm just sort thinking the police here si sapsford (46:56) So I'm just sort of thinking police here stops them sort of seeing In-Person (47:03) What stops them seeing haunted crews going out and thinking they hear some odd behaviour and being suspicious of you in the same way without shooting someone? Or the fugitives for example, they're running around looking pretty as hell. Do the police actually accidentally get involved at all? Well it's interesting because you'll see if you watch it that they go to Craig Revel Hallward's birthday party in episode two because... si sapsford (47:05) hunted crews going out and thinking here's some odd behavior and being suspicious of you in the same way without shooting someone know or the fugitives for them they're running around looking guilty as hell of something does the police actually accidentally get involved at all or well it's interesting because when you'll see if you watch it that they they get to create Revol Holds birthday party in episode two because Amy Down and Carlos Gou know that he's celebrating his 60th and that she doesn't want to miss it under any circumstances and that she thinks or they think that there's no way we're going to find out why on earth would we think they're going to bother to go to Craig's house. But of course, like I said, we have her husband on Intercept so she phones him and tells him. In-Person (47:31) Amy Doudna and Carla Skoo know that he's celebrating his 60th and that she doesn't want to miss it under any circumstances. And she thinks, or they think, that there's no way we're going to find out why on earth would we think they're going to bother to go to Craig's house. But of course, like I said, we have her husband on intercept, so she phones him and tells him that si sapsford (47:51) that's where they are and police can collect them from there. So of course we turn up. So when our ground-hunter teams turn up they've got local police there In-Person (47:51) that's where they are and please collect her from there. So of course we turn up. So when our Grand Hunter teams turn up, they've got local police there. si sapsford (47:59) because he's having a massive shindig. But no, I can't remember there being any problems with the police. And I've chased, we had, was a ground-hunter with my friend Zoe Kelsell who's a chief inspector in Staffordshire, brilliant police officer she is. We were tracking two fugitives from Nottingham In-Person (47:59) because he's having a massive shindig. But no, I can't remember there being any problems with the police. And I've chased, had, when I was a ground hunter with my friend Zoe Kelsall, who's a chief inspector in Staffordshire, brilliant police officer she is, we were tracking two fugitives from Nottingham, and we were in Nottingham, which I know very well because I'm from Nottingham, and we had to run through the park, si sapsford (48:19) and we were in Nottingham, which I know very well because I'm from Nottingham. We had to run through the park it was a really run down area of Nottingham and there were lots of people that were drunk and taking drugs in this park and we were sprinting, chasing. It was a capture moment for us, capture, capture, that sort of thing. And so we would have drawn a lot of attention there. In-Person (48:24) It was a really rundown area of Nottingham and there were lots of people that were drunk and taking drugs in this part and we're sprinting, chasing. It was a capture moment for us, capture, capture, that sort of thing. And so we would have drawn a lot of attention there, but you know, it's always been okay, I think, because you've got, you know, it's not just you. If it were just you, you know, it would be maybe something that would attract the police, but you have got a camera crew behind you. si sapsford (48:39) But, you know, it's always been okay, I think. Because you've got, you know, it's not just you. If it were just you, you know, it would be maybe something that would attract the police. But you have got a camera crew behind you. So In-Person (48:50) so you're running and then behind you inevitably is somebody holding a big camera over their shoulder and running so it looks less suspicious for that reason it's obvious and because hunted has been around so long si sapsford (48:50) you're running and then behind you, inevitably, is somebody holding a big camera over their shoulder and running. So it looks less suspicious for that reason. It's obvious. And because Hunter has been around so long... In-Person (49:02) find that a lot of police officers watch hunted a lot of police officers connected with shine because it is a policey kind of program so it's well known i think yeah yeah i remember when i was on sky portrait artist of the year si sapsford (49:02) you'll find that a lot of police officers watch Hunted, a lot of police officers are connected with Shine because it is a police-y kind of programme. So it's well known. right. So, you know, you'd be recognised. Yeah. I was just thinking, when I was on Sky Portrait Artist of the Year they would, ask questions and you perform differently for camera. In-Person (49:17) would questions and you perform differently for that kind of feels like, the celebrities are doing that. Yeah. It's funny that understanding of what is expected and how si sapsford (49:20) that kind of feels like, the celebrities are doing that. it's funny that understanding of what is expected and how you deliver. And you hadn't realized that you, you that is what expended and that's what I do. Yes. Yeah. mean, you learn a new skill, don't you? Essentially, very quickly when you're on TV. you know, are somebody's... In-Person (49:29) Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, you learn a new skill, don't you? Essentially, very quickly when you're when you're on TV, because, you know, you are somebody's somebody's right there with a camera in your face and you can be. si sapsford (49:43) somebody's right there with the camera in your face and you can be a foot away from them. You can't look at them. Don't look at the camera, don't look at the camera, don't look at the camera. And you just learn it becomes second nature. I've had to almost change my body position to avoid a camera because there's so many cameras in HQ. It has to look very normal. In-Person (49:48) I don't know, foot away from them. You can't look at them. Don't look at the camera, don't look at the camera, don't look at the camera. And you just learn it becomes second nature. mean, you have to, I've to almost change my body position to avoid a camera, because there's so many cameras in HQ. It has to look very normal. With the ground hunter teams, you see them running and you can see the camera crew behind them sometimes. And that's just the way it is. Or if they're traveling in the car. si sapsford (50:08) With the Ground Hunter teams, you see them running and you can see the camera crew behind them sometimes and that's just the way it is. Or if they're traveling in the car, if there's a call. So you often have a scene where I will be telling the Ground Hunters where I them to go and I'll call them In-Person (50:15) If there's a call, so you often have a scene where I will be telling the ground hunters where I want them to go and I'll call them si sapsford (50:21) and whilst we're having that conversation you can see somebody in the back filming so they'll have a GoPro in the car and then there'll be a producer director in the back and sometimes they're visible In-Person (50:22) And whilst we're having that conversation, you can see somebody in the back filming. So they'll have a GoPro in the car, and then there'll be a producer, director in the back. And sometimes they're visible. si sapsford (50:34) and so our director producer will say can you tell your crew to put a hood on or hide you know but that's it's so it's difficult to film entirely that excitement and all the running and everything else from a ground hunter In-Person (50:34) And so our director producer will say, can you tell your crew to put a hood on or hide? know, but that's, so it's difficult to film entirely that excitement and all the running and everything else from a ground hunter without seeing the camera crew behind them. You don't see the camera crew in HQ. si sapsford (50:48) without seeing the camera crew behind them. You don't see the camera crew in HQ. We film pieces to camera all the time because they'll say, right, George, what do you think? They got away there. How does that make you feel? And you'll go, well, I'm furious about it. How could they have got away? We were so close. You we can almost feel their breath on our face, that sort of stuff, you know. So you do learn to work and understand and live with the cameras. In-Person (50:53) We film pieces to camera all the time because they'll say, right George, what do you think? They got away there. How does that make you feel? And you'll go, well, I'm furious about it. How could they have got away? We were so close. know, we could almost feel their breath on our face, that sort of stuff, you know. So you do learn to work and understand and live with the cameras. Well, thank you for that, George. It's been really interesting catching up with you on those things. I'm sure everyone else will agree. And I've just got to that point where I normally ask my guests to recommend si sapsford (51:14) Well, thank you for that, George. It's been really interesting catching up with you on those things. And, I'm sure everyone else will agree. And I've just got to that point where I normally ask my guests to recommend In-Person (51:28) A book, a play, a film, anything that you think might be of interest. Well, it's interesting si sapsford (51:28) a book, a play, a film, anything that you think might be of interest. Well, it's interesting I read a lot of books between the ages, I don't know, 16 and 22, But The Child in Time by Amy McEwen is just horrifying to me, and as a parent, so essentially, In-Person (51:33) So I read a lot of books between the ages of, I don't know, 16 and 22. But The Child in Time by Ian Mcewan is just horrifying to me. And as a parent, so essentially... si sapsford (51:48) husband and wife, they've got a four-year-old and the husband takes the four-year-old to a a local shop, and loses the child essentially. That's it, the child gets presumably abducted. We don't know what happens, or I can't remember knowing what happens, but... In-Person (51:48) husband and wife, they've got a four year old and husband takes the four year old to a a local shop and loses the child, essentially. That's it. Child gets presumably abducted. We don't know what happens or I can't remember knowing what happens. si sapsford (52:02) And I had do that in great depth for my GCSEs and then having children of my own, I stayed with them. I've never took my eyes off of them. I always came up with a strategy for exits and say for example I spent all of a I got round and one of my children wasn't there. In-Person (52:02) and I had studied that in great depth for my GCSEs and then having children of my own, I stayed with them. I've never took my eyes off of them. Always came up with a strategy for exits. it's a safe example. I spent all of a sudden look around and one of my children wasn't there, si sapsford (52:18) I'd have sussed out which exits to run for straight away in case anything had happened to them. But essentially Ian McEwan was firmly grounded in my list of favourite authors at that point and I recently rediscovered him. In-Person (52:18) I'd have sussed out which exits to run for straight away in case anything had happened to them. But essentially Ian McEwan was firmly grounded in my list of favorite authors at that point. And I recently rediscovered him. si sapsford (52:30) normally when I go on holiday because I like escapism, years of being in the police means that I want escapism in my life, not reality. I mean it's fiction, these books are fiction but if it's too hard-hitting for me I'm not really interested but so I tend to go on holiday for a romantic novel choice and then a know a hard-hitting sort of American type can slaughter. In-Person (52:30) normally when I go on holiday because I like escapism years of being in the police means that I want escapism in my life not reality not I mean this fiction these books are fiction but if it's too hard-hitting for me I'm not really interested but so I tend to go on holiday for a romantic novel choice and then a you know a hard-hitting sort of American type Karen Slaughter si sapsford (52:53) type book, know, British Cornwall type thing. But Ian McEwan, On Chesil Beach In-Person (52:53) type book you know just Cornwall type thing but Ian McEwen on Chesil Beach si sapsford (53:00) is one of my favourite books and I would recommend pretty much everybody to familiarise themselves with that catalogue of Ian McEwan, given the opportunity and time. thank you. is it A Busman's Holiday if you're reading? In-Person (52:59) is one of my favourite books and I would recommend pretty much everybody to familiarise themselves with the back catalogue of Ian McEwen given the opportunity and time. Thank you. know, is it Busman's Holiday if you're reading crime si sapsford (53:16) Well, I read extreme crime fiction. I said, Karen Slaughter, British Cornwell, it's all sort grisly, forensic stuff. You know, you've got a forensic examiner in Quebec. In-Person (53:15) fiction? Well I read extreme crime fiction, like I said Karen Slaughter, British Cornwell, it's all sort of grisly forensic stuff you know you've got a forensic examiner in Quebec. si sapsford (53:27) Investigating serial killers. it was nothing like my kind of everyday existence It's not sort of brutal. I you I don't know if you watched adolescence with yeah, Stephen Graham I couldn't watch that I haven't been able to watch that And the reason I haven't been able to watch it because the opening scene is so gritty In-Person (53:27) investigating serial killers. like my kind of everyday existence. It's not sort of brutal. I don't know if you watched Adolescence with Stephen Graham. I couldn't watch that. I haven't been able to watch that. And the reason I haven't been able to watch it is because the opening scene is so gritty. And it frightens me. So anything to do with children. si sapsford (53:47) It frightens me. So anything to do with children, In-Person (53:51) I can't watch, I don't. I avoided child protection at all costs in my career. I was very clear and very firm that I didn't want to work in child protection and I knew why. I just knew that it wasn't going to work for me. I would get too emotionally involved and I think it would affect my mental health. So I struggle still even though he is, I mean he's the perpetrator but he's still a kid. He's a 13 year old, he, adolescence? si sapsford (53:49) I can't watch. I avoided child protection at all costs in my career. I was very clear and very firm that I didn't want to work in child protection. And I knew why. I just knew that it wasn't going to work for me. I would get too emotionally involved and I think it would affect my mental health. So I struggled still, even though he is, I mean he's the perpetrator. But he's still a kid. He's a 13 year old, he? Adolescence. So, and that's real gritty British drama. So escapism in the form of serial killers in the deep South in America is not a busman's holiday. just, it's just like, it's like science fiction almost to me. So it's easy. And do you find them really incredibly In-Person (54:16) So, and that's real gritty British drama. So escapism in the form of serial killers in the deep South in America is not a busman's holiday. just like science fiction almost to me. So it's easy. si sapsford (54:35) well researched, these sort of books or do you, you know, you picking up on things? I know if I've watched films on sailing, because I used to do a lot of long distance sailing. In-Person (54:39) I know if I watch films on sailing because used to do a lot of long distance sailing, si sapsford (54:45) There's some of that wouldn't happen. That wouldn't happen. Yes. find that with British television shows, Silent Witness for example, I hate Silent Witness, think that's bonkers. I mean, the idea that they've got a forensic pathologist interviewing. In-Person (54:46) that wouldn't happen. Yes, yes. find that with British television shows, Silent Witness for example, I hate Silent Witness, I think they're bonkers. I mean the idea that they've got a forensic pathologist interviewing. Suspects is just ridiculous. It's just too far-fetched. So that I find that frustrating but then you know more recently Sally who wrote happy Valley and? Tango in Halifax. She's done loads of stuff. I know she has a police advisor because I met the one of the actresses from the from white riot women at a ball a couple of years ago We were talking about it and she has a police advisor on set which I si sapsford (54:56) Suspects is just ridiculous. It's just too far-fetched. So that I find that frustrating but then you know more recently Sally who wrote happy Valley and I know she has a police advisor because I met the actresses from the white riot women at a ball a couple of years ago We were talking about it. She has a police advisor on set love to have done something like that. How are you getting into that, God knows. Well you put a shout out on my podcast. Yeah, shout out on your podcast. You want a police advisor. But yeah, so she's brilliant and I feel very much like, I can relate to that. But I do get cross. It's just poor research. It's just shabby for me. In-Person (55:18) I'd love to have done something like that. How are you getting to that? knows. You could put a shout out on my podcast. Yes, shout out on your podcast. If want a police advisor. But yes, so she's brilliant. And I feel very much like, that I can really relate to that. But I do get cross if I miss just it's just poor research. It's just shabby for me. And I don't think they should be allowed to make that kind of telly. Just put a bit more effort in. That's how it feels to me. si sapsford (55:38) And I don't think they should be allowed to make that kind of telly. Just put a bit more effort in, that's how it feels to me. In-Person (55:45) But obviously American stuff, I've got no idea if it's realistic or not, because they can do anything in America, can't they? They can, and presumably their system might be slightly different than the forensic experts. Yes, yes. Well, that's really interesting. Well, thanks George for Thank you. We enjoyed it and got a better insight now about the hunted. si sapsford (55:45) But obviously American stuff, I've got no idea if it's realistic or not, because they can do anything in America, can't they? They can, and presumably their system might be slightly different with the forensic experts, I don't know either. Yes. So you're just guessing. Well, that's really interesting. And well, thanks, George, for joining me today. I've really enjoyed it and got a better insight now about hunted. In-Person (56:07) Fab. Well, thank you for having me. It's been lovely. si sapsford (56:08) Well thank you for having me, it's been lovely. Okay.