si (00:05) Hello, I'm Si Sapsford and this is My Private View, a series about how we look at art and comes out of that habit of looking and thinking and of wondering what other people see when they're doing the same thing. Each month I'll sit down with someone from various creative backgrounds and talk not just about what they make, but how they see, what they notice, what stays with them and what shapes their way of working. I'll also be looking at what's happening now. At the end of each conversation, I'll ask them to recommend something that they've seen or read or experienced that stayed with them. And in return, I'll respond with something of my own. We'll also open things up to your questions, questions that come out of listening to the programme, things that remain unresolved or half formed. If something in an earlier episode stays with you, or if it leaves you with a question, you can send it to me at si Sapsford, and I'll bring some of those into future conversations. And I'll also include in each episode a small reflection, something I've seen or thought about that I can't quite let go of. Think of it as a kind of gallery and sound. I'm your host, and this is... My Private View. And this leads me nicely into a musing I had earlier this week. si (01:34) Recently I was in Seville. I'd been going around various galleries and stately homes, but one painting caught my eye. It was by Murillo. There are quite a lot of Murillo paintings in Seville. This was of Saint Elizabeth tending the sick. And although the painting itself was quite touching, a scene of care and humility, that wasn't what actually caught my attention. It almost passed me by, but then in the background I suddenly noticed a woman wearing glasses. She wasn't the main subject at all. And the reason it caught my attention was because you just don't expect to see that in a painting from the 1600s, or I didn't anyway. So I sort of stopped and paused and really had a good look. And here was the thing, I suddenly realized how many paintings do I see with people wearing glasses, especially painting from the 16th century. And I realized the answer very quickly was not a lot. because this painting had been painted in the 1600s and here it was in a painting feeling almost ordinary. Why was she wearing glasses? What was the artist trying to say? There must be some sort of meaning Because glasses had existed for centuries by that point. But painting, especially in earlier periods, wasn't really about capturing everyday reality as it is. It was selective, idealized, and sometimes symbolic. So it makes those small details, like Marilla's woman in glasses, feel almost radical or at least intentional, a quiet acknowledgement of real life slipping into a carefully composed scene. I had a similar reaction seeing a painting of a bearded woman. Again, something you don't expect, but for completely different reasons. Because while ordinary things like glasses were often left out, unusual or extraordinary bodies were sometimes very deliberately included in those days, studded even or put on display. So there's this interesting contrast. The everyday can be invisible. while the exceptional becomes visible. And it makes me think about how artists then and now decide what's worth showing. What feels appropriate? What feels meaningful? Even today, we probably still edit reality in similar ways, just with different rules. And that one small detail in a Murillo painting ended up opening a much bigger question. not just about what we see in art, but what we expect to see and why. Si (04:04) And now moving on to this episode's guest. I'm very happy to have writer Lauren Schott with me this week. Originally from America, Lauren spent more than two decades working in publishing and editing before writing her debut novel, Very Slowly All at Once, a psychological thriller that follows Mac and Hayley, a couple who seem to have everything. Until, that is, everything starts to go wrong when Mac starts receiving checks in the post. So it's with great pleasure. that I welcome Lauren to join me today. Hello, Lauren. si (04:35) Thank you for having me. Si (04:37) I've got lots of questions, so I'll dive straight in if that's all right. si (04:43) Sounds great. Si (04:45) So as an artist, I sometimes have a fully formed idea that comes to me in the moment. And I think it's just arrived out of nowhere. But later on, I realized that maybe subconsciously I've been gathering all that information over time, all those ideas. that eventually leads to the moment of inspiration. And I was just wondering, where do you begin or where do you get that initial germ of an idea? Does that develop over time or is there an initial eureka moment? si (05:16) Oh, that's a good question. For this book, I would have to say there was a eureka moment. I had in my head this image of this man opening his mail and instead of finding bills, he found money. He found a check and that came sort of early on. think I was opening the post and, you know, thought how interesting that would be. But then it took a long time to sort of put it together and think about how it would work and think about who might have a reason to send him money that would make him more likely to. cash these mysterious checks that he gets in the novel, and also thinking about why the person who it turns out to be maybe has more sinister intentions. So the details of how the story would work came later, but that image of him sort of opening a check and being pleasantly excited was sort of my inspiration. Si (06:08) I imagine that's quite nice actually, that moment of mulling it all over in your head before you actually start writing. si (06:15) That's my favorite part. I tend to get stuck in that part. I'm stuck in that part on the one I'm working, the novel I'm working on now. I've been stuck in it for years. I love, because once you put it down on paper, it feels, I'm sure, art is the same. Once you start, then you have to be careful about going back. And you do, and in writing, with editing, you can go back and take things completely apart. But for me, I like to proceed with caution so that I know that I'm laying down the foundation of the story the way that I want it. So I do that in my head for... months and months and months before I put it down on paper. Si (06:45) Do you not find though that you quite often forget things? if you sort of wake up in the middle of the night and you have a thought in your head, if I do that and I don't write it down immediately, it's gone by the morning, I just don't remember it. si (06:58) Yeah, I do phrases, like occasionally I'll think of sentences or scenes and just make a little note and then I just sort of work them into the whole thing. of right now I'm working on the second novel, which is not a sort of sequel to this one, it's a new novel. And it's sort of, I would say 75 % there in my head even, like chapter by chapter. And I just keep adding to it. And I probably do forget some things, but I write down if there's like sort of a phrase that fits in when I, you know, I'll be walking, taking the dog for a walk or gardening or something and think of it and I just add it to it. So I do, I spend a long time in my own head before I get it down on paper. Si (07:37) So thinking about that, I wonder if I relate that to my own process of making again, I sometimes realise that something isn't working or maybe there's been a shift in where I want the work to go. Do you find that happens to you as well, Lauren? si (07:50) Yes, this book, A Very Slowly All at Once, it sort of folds in on itself really tightly. So I kind of knew what had to come next. That kept me from sort of wandering away from where I wanted it to go or wandering off track. But the one I'm working on now is sort of more expansive. It has two time periods and that it gives you more room to wander and you have to keep coming back to the original idea. Have I gone too far from what I set out to do? And even in Very Slowly All at Once, gives the background. It's about a married couple and it gives a little bit of their history. And I had to be careful to give just enough and not take the reader so far back that we weren't in the sort of thriller tension of the day. but just to fill in enough about them that you wanted to know more. in order to do that, there had to be more than was needed in the actual novel itself that existed in my head and on paper, and then I cut it down. So yeah, it is constantly rerouting back to where you want to be. Si (08:50) Yes, I can see you do have to be aware of that happening. With your second book, I know that's already underway. Do you have to follow the same process or does it depend on the novel that you're writing? Is it different? si (09:04) Yes, it feels different for the second one. The first book, because that image came to me and then it was sort of it flew from there. I mean, it was like I said, it took a few months in my head. But I knew what I wanted to have happen and it came really quickly. because that not the very slowly all at once is really a thriller with sort of mystery elements. And it's again, it was just very sort of targeted and direct. This one is how do I piece together? It's also about marriage. It's the story of a couple when they meet in the 1940s and when they meet again, they've had a huge, they've been married but had a huge falling out after a brief marriage in the 1970s. and there's more to work with because they've lived longer lives and I'm not concentrated in a really, well, I'm concentrated in two specific time periods. So it's taking a little longer to sort of home in on the scenes that I want. But that's also been fun thinking about a wider expanse of their lives. Si (10:03) I find if I'm writing an article or something like that, it's sort of the moment of creative thinking about why am I putting these things together that I enjoy most. then the editing, well, I find that much harder and less interesting for me, to be honest. si (10:22) Yeah, think so. I am an editor in my day job and I do love it because you get to look at other people's stories from a distance. I often actually say to my students and my clients that you have to think of it like an art exhibition. where you're curating the scenes that tell the story that you want to tell as opposed to looking at the novel as a whole. And I love doing that because people tell me the story they want to tell and then I get to oftentimes reach in and say, scene is working towards telling that story. This one maybe needs a little polishing or why can't we see this moment? And that's what I do love about editing. What I don't love about editing is, particularly your own work, is seeing things that you love end up on the chopping board. Si (11:07) It's interesting that you use the metaphor of curating in terms of describing the editing process. si (11:14) I use the art exhibition all the time, because what people do when they write is They tell the whole story all the time. when you're writing a novel, it's a series of scenes. And that's the hardest thing to learn is that you don't write into the scene with all the information before and all the information after. It's hard to describe, but it's saying you tell the story by curating, by, you know, sort of curating an art exhibition that then leaves you with a whole feeling. And I, it's fun. It's like amazing to talk to an actual artist and see if I'm making any sense with that. Si (11:44) Absolutely, it does make sense. all, they're all creative processes and editing happens in painting and art in general as well. It happens all the time. So if I think about how I work or make a painting and relate it to a chapter or scene in a book, I've been trying to think if it's the same for you, looking back and revisiting a scene, is this how it works for you as well? Do you do that? si (12:14) Yeah. I think it was like the thinking about it in your head, like because I procrastinate like endlessly and I finally realized that's part of it. And it's interesting that you think about it while you're doing other things. Because my friend's husband is a screenwriter and he will spend months just like walking around London and thinking. And she said he is very protective of that time. He doesn't call it procrastinating. He doesn't call it mooching or it's his, he's thinking. And I was like, I wish I was. brave enough to say that's what I'm doing. But I'm always like, yeah, I'm almost working on it. I like this book now is just more complex than very slow. Like it's actually a simpler story, but it's it just feels harder. Like it's I'm definitely trying to, you know, make it a more it has a historical aspect. and that's been interesting. And I'm like, am I now pushing the boundaries of where it's tipping into procrastination or some form of writer's block? Or is it just that it's taking longer to plan in my head? So it's nice to know other people take time and plan and get stuck Si (13:21) think you do sometimes need quite a big gap to sort of get the enthusiasm and focus. Si (13:27) And then suddenly there comes a moment when you think, yeah, I'm just going to get on with this now. si (13:32) I think that's it. I'm like this close to it. Si (13:37) get an idea not necessarily from the work itself but just from an element it might be just the way some fabrics painted or just something quite abstract within a figurative painting. Si (13:52) And I wondered if you experience the same thing sometimes, maybe through a conversation or an event? si (14:02) Yeah, I find that too. I think other people expressing their enthusiasm for me is what makes me like, that's why I love editing. because people will tell me about their story and very rarely, like there's been a few times where I'm like, I wish I thought of that idea, you know, or where you get the sense that no, they're never gonna execute it, but that it's an amazing idea. and I think, but like just seeing how excited people get reminds me of like why I do this. I'm just trying to get back to that. of excitement for myself because especially in the middle of a novel it takes so long to write it that you get muddled and you forget you know the joy in it and that's yeah. Si (14:44) Do you ever get inspiration from talking to children then for your children's books? si (14:50) I loved the school visits there because they're ruthless. Like if you don't hold the kids' attention, I loved writing children's books and I, that also is my biggest sort of dilemma is I have this children's book in my head almost in its entirety. And it's an adventure and it's for a friend's son who passed away. It's like, it kind of came to me through him and I cannot get it out of my head. And so it's like, I don't want to not write that one and I don't want to not write because of the momentum of very slowly all at once. And so I just don't write anything. But I do love writing for children and I love children's stories. I, even the ones that are sort of more modern, I listen to a lot of audio books of children's while I walk the dog and I still love it. So we'll have to see what, and now I've made this like mess of my maiden name, my married name. Because I didn't want to do, I think having one writer write little chapter books and then also like serial killer, you know, so I, yeah. Si (15:48) So the book, inspired by your friend's son, I'm assuming that you've Si (15:52) chatted together about all of this. si (15:54) Yeah, so we talked about it. it was sort of set in her house, they live in Chicago, and so I asked her, I said, I've got this idea and it's twins and I think it might be your twins, and she said, do And so I, in my mind, it's a little bit for them, and I sort of think of her sons when I think of the story. And so I will write it one day, even if just for her, for them. They're older now, like the boys she has three sons. and one passed away and the two that are here are older now, but I could just catch the little one being the right age to read it, I think, if I wrote it now and I do think about that, but so I don't know. And then each book will have like a chunk missing of how I would actually like execute it. And that's the part where it's basically whichever one gets there first in my head, I'll probably write next. But I think my agent will kill me if I write a middle grade novel now having. done very slowly and there's like some cool stuff happening with it I probably need to write the next one Si (16:53) Being an editor yourself, did you find you had to do lots of rereading and editing for very slowly and indeed, you know, maybe the novel that you're starting at the moment? si (17:04) Yeah. So I didn't make a lot of changes to Very Slowly All at Once. And I sent it to my agent and she made a few changes. The American agent made a few changes and then it had a great edits from the editors at HarperCollins in the US and the UK. And they were, it was interesting because I think some people feel worried about that or nervous of what's going to be cut or what the feedback's going to be. But I really liked it. was like watching someone else do my job because I don't often get to see how other people edit, would say edit the same book I would. So it was really nice and it helped me get distance from the book. I'd finished writing it, I'd handed it over, had some time and space. And the things they noticed were, obviously you're coming from a different perspective. So it was different from what I... had thought I needed to work on. So it was really fun actually. Si (17:53) So it felt right, did it? si (17:56) Yes, almost everything that they said. They weren't big edits. It was more on, and what I found was that it was things, and I actually find this with my own clients too, it's often with writing, it's things that you have in your head that just didn't make it onto the page. So very slowly all at once was about marriage. And so I knew why Mack and Haley fell in love. I knew. why they were right for each other at one period of time. But I had to make sure the reader had just enough of that to say, this is why they're hanging in there. Because by the time we find them in the beginning of Very Slowly All at Once, their marriage is a little bit rocky and goes from there. And the whole novel is built off of the conflict they have with each other. And that's where my focus was. So in the editing process, we had to go back and say, let's remind the readers why these people. still like each other and are still married. And it was really funny because the younger sort of editors that read it and the assistants that read it, they were the ones that said, well, why are they still married? Why haven't they just walked away? And I thought, well, you you get 50 years down the line and it's a different story. in the novel, and Haley are sort of in their late 30s and 40s and they have little children. And so the novel is all about that period of your life when you're sort of really stressed and tense. But I had to remind the reader occasionally that they weren't always this stressed and tense and they were college students and they were just starting out and they had all these moments together. And that was actually really fun. So it was taking people that based on those editorial comments of let's think about their relationship a little bit more and bring it to life. I already knew them. So it was really fun to go back and then say, okay, what were these two doing at this point? So it was like revisiting old friends that I'd handed over and that part of it was fun. Si (19:42) And I guess sometimes you're sort of so embedded in the story yourself and you know these characters so intimately that you might forget that there's bits that you haven't actually put down on paper for the reader as well. And, you know, you need to be reminded, I guess. si (19:59) Yes, exactly. balance of having enough to suggest what their life has been like at different phases, but not so much that you lose the forward pull of the mystery that's happening, you know, right now in the book. So that was it was fun to try to get that balance and pick. Again, it's curating, it's picking the moments from their past that you could use as backstory to show the best, you know, give the best snapshot of what their lives would have been like. Si (20:24) I think about books I've read in the past, classics for example, the amount of time that an author might spend describing a scene, I wonder if publishers now assume that people don't have the patience for this, these evocative passages. What do you think? si (20:42) Yes, I think that's true. I think it depends on the genre. If you're writing thrillers, which I think this book very slowly all at once is a kind of a hybrid, but if you're sort of sitting near the thriller genre. You've got to move, you've got to keep the reader going and the tension going. And a lot of the edits I do for other people are about increasing the tension. But at the same time, I hope we don't lose that capacity to enjoy, just to linger a little bit in a text and in description. I hope not. But I do know that with children's books, we tell authors and we get the reader's attention right away because you're competing with... gaming, you're competing with movies, TV, you know? And I think that's true, really is. mean, when you are looking as an agent, for example, at a children's book or an editor as a children's book now, it's can you hook the reader the second, right out of the gate, basically. So then those readers are gonna grow up and expect that even more as they get older. Si (21:40) There's a shift happening. I see that. If I'm watching a film, for example, now they often repeat information and I feel like they're catering to people being on their phones at the same time and only giving half their attention to what they're watching. So the programme makers think that they have to repeat everything, although the Oscars this year felt like a little bit of a push back against this. si (22:04) Yeah, a pushback against that sort of, you know, 90 seconds attention span. I hope so. I mean, I as someone who loves books, it terrifies me when they talk about, people not having the patience to get lured into a story for a minute. You know, it has to happen from page one. I mean, the advice I give writers is make it happen from page one, start in the middle. And we've given that advice as sort of agents and editors since I started in publishing, which was almost 30 years ago. So it is, you know, you still have to grip someone, I, know, children's books, they're saying they're getting shorter. And again, all that's gonna just translate, gonna sort of kick up the line as these people with shortened detention spans get older. So I do hope there'll be pushback against it, because I don't know what literature is going to look like if it's 90 second sound bites of a story. So what age group are the books you were writing for children? So I wrote in 2015, a series of early chapter books for sort of, they were designed for people who were reading, who were just starting to read on their own. And it was really fun to write and think about. had kids that age. My daughter, think, was seven or eight when they were published. And that was actually really about how do you keep kids' attention? How do you get them to sit down and read something? And it was all about little friendships between... It was set in a girls' school, because my daughter went to a girls' school at the time, and my son was in it. There was a little brother in it. And was just really fun to write because I knew what they were interested in. And so that's all the books were. So if you read it as a grownup, I hope they weren't too painful for parents to read. But they were designed so that kids would get into them and have nothing they didn't really understand, which wasn't, you I really believe that literature should, that books should push kids, you know, boundaries and their imagination. But this was simply. you deal with the words, you're able to focus on these words that you've just learned to read and here's the story that kind of goes with them and draws your attention span in. So, and they were really fun and I got to do school visits, which was very fun. Si (24:15) to make up bedtime stories for my kids and I wondered if the initial seed for your children's books come from telling your children made up stories too? si (24:25) So mine went a step further. It was actually my daughter's idea. She had a friend, she was in year two at the time, and she had a friend that was in year six. And it was very cool that she had this friend that was older and the little girl was so nice to her. And I remember at the time thinking, wow, year six is so grown up, know, Ava will never be that grown up. And they and she said, I wish she wasn't leaving because I won't I don't have a friend in year five and I won't know any older kids anymore and I won't be a school. And so, and I said, well, maybe she'll love the school that she was at in London so much that she won't leave. And then we started talking about what it would be like if the year six class of a great primary school decided they wouldn't leave. And that was the story. It was called year two forever and ever, because in this fictional school, the year six wouldn't leave. So none of the kids could move up in the school got really crowded and then it just went from there. So it was about the first novel. The first book in the series was about these little girls who couldn't, you who were stuck in year two. So it was really fun and she loved seeing that, having worked in publishing and having seen their mom work with writers and met writers and things for them to see it written basically from Ava's idea. My son had input. He had some of his sort of antics featured in it and then see that it actually became a book that was the most fun part of it actually for them. And they went to some of my school visits and stuff. Si (25:46) And with books like that, do they have graphics? si (25:50) Yes, there was an amazing illustrator that Scholastic published these books that found called Becca Moore and she, it was really fun. Her illustrations were really charming and she took pictures of the kids that had inspired the characters in the book and sort of there was a scene of my children at breakfast and she asked for a photo of them at breakfast. It was really fun thing to work on. Slightly less intense than... than very slowly all at once, but very fun. Si (26:20) and that are so much part of their story. si (26:27) Yes, they do. And they've had fun. Like, my daughter's at uni now. And I think it was a friend of hers that was in this group of girls that knew the books were written about them and had someone say, do you ever remember reading? They were called Crabtree School, the series of books called Crabtree School. And the little girl said, Isabel is me. And so that was really funny. And it was nice that it had sort of a little bit of life as they grew up. Si (26:55) Exactly. And I've just realised I've sort of segued away for a moment then, getting back on point. Don't you do ghost writing as well? si (27:06) I have done in the past. Yeah, I haven't done. I do a lot more now of editing of mostly fiction. So I did some sort of ghost writing and writing of non-fiction proposals and things, I've sort of the older I get, the more I like to be in sort of made up stories, the world of stories. Si (27:25) I was going to ask what it was like ghost writing. I was going to ask what it's like ghost writing. I suppose someone just comes to you with an idea and then it's your job to interpret that idea. si (27:38) Yes, it's fun. It's fun to work with someone else because writing can get lonely. And I did really enjoy that. But I also find as I go forward, I don't feel, it's not that the clock is ticking, but I have all these stories that I want to get out. And I've realized, I have realized through working on these books that I'm a person that needs to think about them for a while. And if I get too many other stories in my head, they push my own out of the way. So I'm really trying to shift more into creating my own stuff and edit. don't think I'll ever not edit other people's things because I love that too, that the story's there and I just kind of shuffle around and help them, help an author make it the best they can. Si (28:19) I would find that during term time, I would be far less creative with my own practice. And even when I broke up for three months in the summer, it would be, it would take me a little bit of time to unwind enough to be able to then start thinking about myself and what I was doing and making. si (28:36) I think that's, find that, yeah, it's very difficult. But then you also, in a way, I get inspired by other people's... creativity and their passion and when I hear someone talk about their novel in a way and you know they they're sort of at that moment when they finished it and they're just trying to shape it I love that too because that makes me think I can't wait to get there so it's a balance again like everything else it's just finding a balance of how do you how do you sort of be involved and really be in someone else's story enough to help them but also save a little bit of your creative energy for yourself. And I haven't worked out that balance 100 % yet, but I enjoy all of it, so it's fine. Si (29:17) That time when you might be walking and thinking about your own story, you end up actually then spending it instead trying to sort out ideas and put things together for someone else. si (29:29) Yes. And the ones I work on, there's so many amazing stories out there that you do, your head gets stuck on them. And I find a lot of times when I work with someone, they've wandered, as we were saying earlier, they've wandered away from what they were trying to say. And then you have kind of the initial conversation and they tell you the genesis of their book. invariably they tell you some amazing fact that started the whole thing that isn't actually in the version, in the manuscript. And that's my favorite part, because then that's how you edit is the, a lot of times it'll be like a historical fact or something. And they say, I heard that and that got me thinking. And then I say, well, where's that in the manuscript? Because if that got your attention, it's going to get the reader's attention too. And then so they start brainstorming. And then we've had this amazing conversation. It's almost to a novel, actually. It happens all the time. And then I get that sort of, like you say, when I'm walking, I think, this would work for this novel. I wonder what he or she would think. So I do get drawn in. But what a great problem to have with your job. Can't stop thinking about it. Si (30:35) I really enjoy talking to students about their work too and thinking about how they could realise their ideas. It's all part of that creative process, isn't it? si (30:47) Yeah. Si (30:49) After the book's gone off to publishing and you're further down the line, I was just wondering, do you enjoy reflecting back on some of the characters? It sounds like you do for the children's books and I guess you kind of answered my question but you must get quite attached to the characters. si (31:07) Yes, I do. I miss them. It's weird when you hand it over and they're... sort of you've spent a year with these people, even though my even though Mack and Haley are pretty awful at times in this book. I loved them and you know them and I can you know, it felt like when you're writing, it feels like you know, you're in their house with them and they don't always do what you want them to do. Sometimes you think you you know, in a scene you wanted them to do something and it doesn't feel right in the flow of the whole book. But for the most part, you just kind of get to be in this world and direct it and then to let it go feels really strange. and then to have readers come back and say what they think or there's been some TV and film things happening for this book. So hearing other people talk about what they would do with these characters has been amazing. So I'm still kind of close to it right now. I still feel like I'm getting to linger in their world a little bit longer. Whereas the children's books, I do feel like I kind of those characters, not behind. but. Mack and Hayley still feel very present. Si (32:12) I guess these things take a lot of time before there's any possibility of them being realised and then a lot can happen in between. But if you think about it, and it did go ahead, you were saying then about people having their own ideas to throw in, would you be asked to do some sort of script writing, do you think? si (32:33) think so. It sounds like it. It's interesting because when I was speaking to producers and things, they were very interested in how precious, you know, like, what do you think about this? Do you care if this character does, you we did this or... And it was interesting. I was talking to some screenwriters and they were saying some authors feel really strongly of what is done with their characters and some don't. And so you have to find your own style and where on the line you sit. And it's interesting with Mack and Haley, feel like they're such a funny couple they have their flaws and they know by the end of the novel, they kind of know what they are. in my mind, I was kind of like, I feel like they would be up for anything. And so I should be too, you know, They would be curious to see where someone else would go and kind of go along for the ride. it makes me excited to think about, the ways some where someone might take them on this crazy adventure that they sort of start in this novel. don't any script writing? No, no, I've read I've worked. I work with a lot of screenwriters who then turn either writing new novels or turning screenplays into books. And I have so much admiration for the way that you need to write and how you sort of, I think it's a fascinating sort of medium, but I haven't written any myself. work with a lot of playwrights and I find it's really interesting to think about what an actor brings to a character, right? Because when you have something that works brilliantly as a screenplay or as a play, but in a novel, you have to flesh out the things that the actor isn't going to do for this character. So I find that fascinating. I don't know if I could translate the other way. We'll find out. Si (34:06) So you've got some background in this and experience, so it would be a really interesting thing for you to do, I guess. si (34:15) Yes, when I started working in publishing, I had a boss who was quite involved in film rights. He he sort of worked very directly with a film agent in L.A. And they would say, should read this screenplay and this is the best screenplay and read this. So I did kind of survey a lot of screenplays a number of years ago. And then, like I said, over the years, I've read a lot of screenplays and plays and thought about how to convert them into novels. So it'll be interesting to think about going the other way. I Si (34:43) you have anyone in mind, anyone you particularly think would be great in the part? si (34:49) I hesitate to say yet. I think there have been some that were sort of thrown out. think we were the lovely, wonderful audio book narrator, Andrew Anderson, sounds like Paul Rudd. And in my head, I think his voice, there's a Paul Rudd-esque quality. And I think I'm not sure that the sort of age is right, but in my head, Mack was a bit like Paul Rudd. I could see that kind of character. Si (35:15) Where do you draw those characters from? Is Mac an amalgamation of different people? Or purely from your imagination? si (35:23) So Mack is, yeah, there are some sort of people which would probably be freaked out if they knew who they were. I picture this is, okay, this is what Haley looks like. Nothing to do with the character or nothing to do with how she is. And then just personality traits, think it was... just sort of fleshing them out, thinking about it over a long period of time. I definitely identify more with Mack than Haley. Haley's very type A and super organized, and Mack is more, he's been writing a novel in his basement for like seven years, and you know, is very laid back. And it was just sort of fleshing them out, thinking about where they came from, thinking about who their parents were, how they were raised. And that's of my favorite thing to do, is thinking about characterization. And if you were, raised like this, how might that affect the way you are? I had, went to a book club that was really lovely and one of the women said, so in the novel, Mac's mother has been ill for, since he was in college, she had had an aneurysm. And one of the women said, I think it's interesting that Mac has had his like sort of development because he acts like a teenager a lot. He's had his personal development frozen at the age. when this tragedy happened to him. And I have to say, I hadn't thought of that. I hadn't really done that consciously, but I said, yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, sure, he has. that was a case of where I that hadn't occurred to me, but I do try to sort of get into their heads and think about who they are. So it really is a mashup of people and ideas and they kind of take on a life of their own. Si (36:55) It doesn't sound as if you suffer from writer's block, but does writer's block exist? And if you got it, how would you deal with it? si (37:04) I think it exists in a sort of a strange way. get. I have enough ideas, so it's never it's it's a fear of starting them, of sort of committing to one. So I have an idea like right now there were three ideas that I had to start for the next novel, and it took me ages to choose. And I also have an idea for a children's book. And for me, it's sort of I start thinking about one and then I get distracted and think about the other one So it's almost I would say rather than writer's block. It's a lack of being able to commit and focus And that's almost worse. I mean, I don't I've never sort of had I don't know I can't think of anything to write about it's I what I have is more of a crisis of Am I choosing the right thing? Is it good enough? I haven't ever had the sort of blank page where nothing will come. It's just, I'm not sure which thing should be coming first and then nothing comes at all and that's worrying. Si (38:05) It is, isn't it? I sometimes sort of find that I'm distracted by chores or events that are happening in my daily life and I'm just wondering how do you cope with that sort of distraction? Do you have a particular time when you sit down and write? si (38:21) I try to, but what tends to happen is I will for a very long period of time be like be the most amazing housekeeper and gardener and then dog walker. And then once it starts coming, I sort of keep calendar with like, and it will say like Monday and I'll say, you know, this many, I've got this many words, 5,000 words, Tuesday I've got 6,000 words, you know, so. And once that happens, once I've actually got the words coming out, I just neglect everything else. And that's what happened with Very Slowly anyway. But in terms of like a structure of a day, I'm definitely a shoot the alligator closest to the boat first. So my editing that has deadlines always gets done first. I tend to push back the writing itself, which is dangerous, I think. But then in that same period, I'm thinking about it and working on it. So it's tricky. I do find it. I'm not a structured person. So I find that the hardest, actually the hardest thing is to actually sit my butt in the chair and write. Si (39:20) think I'm a little bit like that. I sort of spend a lot of time mulling things over but then once I get to that tipping point where I know what I want to do then that's it. I could easily start missing dinner. si (39:32) Yeah. And I think it's like intoxicating, but also when you have responsibilities and children and, you know, you I mean, I remember for a period with Very Slowly All at Once where everything else felt like noise because I was in these and I've got to get this out because I knew it was in there and I was worried of losing the sort of tension behind it. And the book I'm working on now, I feel like that's going to be even more intense because it's a sort of a bigger time span. have a personal, it's a little bit based on my grandparents. And so it's, I'm nervous for that to happen, but I mean, also excited, but you do, just think your head is so full of it that, you almost feel guilty because you can't really focus on anything else. Si (40:16) So what about the title? Did that come very early on? si (40:20) That came early on, there was, in the novel, it comes from a, it's a myth quote, actually, from an article that Haley, protagonist, is a divorce lawyer, and she's giving an interview, and she quotes Hemingway in the interview to this Cleveland, it's a magazine in Cleveland, and she says divorce happens slowly, very slowly, all at once, and actually she's myth quoting, and I saw that in a magazine in Cleveland. And I was like, that's a really interesting phrase. whomever had said it, it was a divorce lawyer in the magazine, had misquoted it. And I could never find it again, but I remembered reading that and thinking that would be a great title for a book. And that was sort of the impetus for making her. And then when I had this image of Mac opening the mail, I thought, if you drip fed this, if you sort of lured someone into a situation and then bam, something happened. So in the novel, the couple... get these checks in the mail from a company called Sunshine Enterprises. And they think they know where this money is coming from. And then it turns out that they don't. And the person that's sending the money has an ulterior motive. it's just little bits, well, reasonably little bits of money at first. So it happens very slowly. And then all at once, it's way worse situation than they thought. that little snippet of that line really. fit it, so the title came pretty early on. Si (41:51) I went to Cleveland, Ohio when I was about 19. I was travelling with a friend on some holidays from university. building being demolished... can't remember it that well, just that I had a great time and I'm just thinking you've lived in the UK now for quite a long time but the book is set in the States and I'm wondering why you set it in the States rather than here because when you were writing the descriptions of the house and the area they're really very clear to the reader I found could get a sense of all that si (42:25) Yeah, I think actually being away from it for some reason, that's where my imagination goes, I guess, having grown up there. So I grew up in Akron. which is where Haley is from originally in the book. And Cleveland for me as a child or as a teenager, we went there occasionally. It was like very much the big city. And so I think it let me see it, particularly, Ohio sort of from a distance. But also because I've been out of it It exists in my mind and then when I go back everything's sharper and clearer than if you are surrounded by it 24-7 I can see how things are different I can see and it was really interesting because the novel set in a neighborhood of Cleveland called Branton Hall Which is a real place I get asked that a lot. It's a real place and the history of it was just fascinating I found Branton Hall and started looking into it and thought, wow, what an amazing place. You know, it just had so much history. It's very sort of separate from Cleveland for better or worse. Wants to seem to me from the history, wanted to stay that way. And it's just this sort of little strip of land and all the history in the novel. is true. that was just research. But when I went and visited a few times with my dad, we just drove around and I thought, it felt like Ohio. for some reason, my imagination goes back there and think, I just picture it really clearly. And I probably will always stories set around Northeastern Ohio, I think. Si (43:51) So you found a publisher, it's been published over here and in the US, And during that editing process, did you find any differences in approach between them or did they collaborate and work it out between them? si (44:03) the editor here and the editor in New York both did a read and kind of put their thoughts together. And then, there was, one edit letter that came to me of things to fix. And then we did a few rounds of just, you know, sort of this scene, can you do this or, you What about this? And so they were pretty much on the same page. weren't massive sort of cultural differences or anything. I think because it was set in America and it has a very American feel, there was a lot of input on setting from the American editor. But they very much agreed on the feedback that they sent. Si (44:43) That have made things easier. But I guess that whole publishing process, getting to the end point, how long does it take from when you started right through to having that actual tangible book in your hand? si (44:59) Yes, it takes a long time. it was 18 months before it was published in the U.S. They wanted a long lead time, particularly in the U.S., to get, you know, to do the marketing and to get the editing right and to get the cover right. So it's a long process. You know, so if you're writing, need to find and you want there's lots of different ways of being published. Now you can do you can self publish I wanted to be published by a a big publisher. So I found an agent who agented my children's books. she took it on and she had great ideas like right from the beginning. She's wonderful. And then so an agent is the one who helps you find a publisher who will take the novel, do a bit of work on it and then submit it. publishers and then had an agent in the US as well. And so it's a long process full of rejection. And I think it always is at every stage of your career as a writer. I always tell my son and my daughter, you just have to plow on and get good people that like your work and just, be a bit tough about it. Si (45:55) Exactly. And I'm sure with your background You would have an idea of the difficulties and hurdles that you might have to get through over time. si (46:03) Yeah, I knew I definitely have been on sort of both sides of it. I've agented things where, you know, that went sold right away and it was a really big deal and things that took longer and things that so it's yeah, again, I think that's as important as maybe not quite, but like as important as writing a good story is the has having resilience to just believe in it and keep plugging away. Whether you go with a big publisher or whether you self-publish or find a smaller publisher, there's lots of great ways to get stories out there. Si (46:31) So you graduated from college. Did you always know you wanted to be a writer? But then ended up in publishing that it was actually quite a good grounding in terms of learning about the process of producing and creating a novel. si (46:44) Yes, it's really interesting. So I didn't remember that I wanted to be an author, like as far back as apparently I did. my parents were cleaning out their basement of their house in Ohio. And I found there was like sort of some boxes of my stuff from when I was really little. And there were papers that teachers had written. it's so good you want to be a writer, you're going to be amazing. And I was like, did I say, I don't remember that. And then my college roommate actually said, well, you said you were going to write a novel and now you've done it. And I thought, did I say that? I didn't remember that. But I've always loved books and stories. I was an English major in college, at uni. But I had a professor. My last year, she was a politics professor and she said, you should be a literary agent. Just totally off of having had like tutorials and things like that. And she said, I want you to go to New York. I was going to New York for something anyway. And she said, I want you to go and meet my agent and you can have like a day in the office because this is what you were meant to do. And I must have been telling her about a book or something that I was reading. She was lovely. she, so I did that and I thought, this is pretty cool. These people sit all day. and make books and talk about books and sell books. And so I did a publishing program that was almost like a master's degree in publishing. It used to be at Radcliffe College where Harvard is. And then they moved it to Columbia University. And that you sort of dove right in and they helped you get a job in publishing. from there, and I loved agenting. I think it's such a cool career. I'm not good at confrontation and you have to sort of be more, I wouldn't say aggressive, but more, you have to like confrontation because you're fighting for your authors and what they need. And I liked the editorial side of it. I liked working on their books. but it kept me close to stories and the more time I had to devote to the sort of editorial side. the more I thought this is all I want to do is be writing. I guess that's a long answer to it, but apparently always wanted to be a writer and just kind of forgot a little bit. Si (48:51) And that brings me sort of to AI. I know that it seems to be coming up in everyone's conversations in the last couple of years. It's sort of taking over lots of areas and obviously people have concerns about the creative industry and how that might affect things. si (49:07) Yeah, I mean, I know this is sort of in the forefront of everyone's minds right now. whether there's I guess agents are being flooded with, AI generated submissions and, they've just pulped a novel that they think was AI generated. I mean, for me, I guess, I think the idea of AI is fascinating. But I just think we have to also think about what we're sort of engineering ourselves out of. And I think that's why I hope that the sort of creative side of writing and publishing will always be, protected. I mean, I think we need to protect it aggressively, not just for writers like myself, but because we're, going to eventually end up with no human experience. I just think you're getting so far away from the human experience and it will come at every level, because if, 12 year olds right now are reading AI generated slop, then they're gonna be used to that. they won't wanna read serious fiction And to me, that's terrifying. Si (50:02) It seems like the publishing industry are sort of already at the moment working to try to preserve the authenticity of the author. si (50:10) Yes, I think so. The Society of Authors has a new badge, basically, that you put on your manuscript that says, I think it says human written or human sourced or something. So basically saying there's no AI. used in this. So I think that's it's to me it feels it's necessary but also feels slightly dystopian, that you have to have that at all. I mean, yeah, makes sense. Si (50:34) So as an artist, find, you if I'm doing a painting and when I'm making a sculpture, I might go back to a particular image or idea more than once. So I may over time do three different paintings, sort of basically the same thing, but the paintings evolve. it's the same with with sculptures. I quite often do installations at different galleries in different places. each time the sculpture is realised in a slightly different way. Si (51:03) And I'm wondering, does that work with writing as well? Do you find elements that you were putting into a book come into another book? Could that happen? si (51:12) Yes, there is a voice. So before I wrote Very Slowly All at Once, I had a sort of book that was a It was a bit of a Frankenstein book. It started out as a children's book, a young adult book actually. And then it sort of morphed into a grownup book and it didn't quite fit together, but it had a narrative voice in there that people really seemed to like. So we sent it to publishers and we got a lot of interest, of early interest, and it actually had a film. offer really early on and then everything kind of went away. when I look at that book now as an editor, it was really me trying to find my grownup fiction voice. But there was a voice, there was a character in that book and I think of her all the time and she just had a really rough life. But she was just tough and like angry and like a little bit had a little bit of the tone of very slowly all at once. But there was also something sort of vulnerable about her. And I would love, I think of her and like where she would fit in another book. And my best friend is one of my earliest readers and she asked, that's her fave. She said, I love very slowly. She's been amazing helping me sort of publicize it and has read it. Her daughter's read it. But she said, someday I want to see, her name was Margot. She said someday, like that voice of that character is like sort of stuck in her head forever. So, and I would love. she comes to me sometimes and I think of where I would try to fit her in or put her. So maybe a short story or something. Si (52:41) Yeah, that makes sense. I was forgetting that there are lots of different ideas going on in the initial planning stages and that maybe some of those ideas just don't fit in with the final book and get cut, but might, come back in another book and have another chance at life. Si (53:00) And it's interesting to make these sort of connections in the way that we all work. si (53:13) Very slowly all at once is not. I mean, it is about marriage. It's about like, it's sort of taking all the little tensions and, oh, I would have done this this way, or I just won't tell him that and magnifying them a million times. And that was really fun. And the little bits, like my sister read it and she said, I would be reading it and thinking it was a real book and then something would happen from, like just a little snippet from our childhood. And then she said, then I would think, my God, my sister wrote this she said that was weird. So there are little anecdotes, cause you do, pull from real life. But I think I'll always do that. And the one I'm working on now is, again pulled from sort of family history, but taken to the extreme. So the mother-in-law in the new novel is a serial killer, and that is obviously not real and not in my family. But it was just to start it. I used the same starting point of my grandmother and her mother-in-law. Si (54:10) Well, I'm looking forward to reading that when it comes out. si (54:14) I just have to write it. Si (54:18) I was just wondering, at the end of the interview, I normally ask my guest to make a recommendation, whether it's an exhibition, a book or a piece of music, or it could be a concert, anything that you think has influenced you. si (54:35) I recently, I've read that there's a book out now called Yesteryear that was published this month by Carol Claire Burke, think. it just blew my mind, just the imagination in it. It's on the New York Times bestseller list now. So it's not a sort of secret recommendation, but it is a book that I think really lives up to the hype that's surrounded it. It's about a trad wife influencer who's one of these people who sort of romanticizes the sort of pioneer American life and bake sourdough for her family. And then she wakes up one day and she is in, I think it's 1855. She's in this era that she's idealized. And when I heard the sort of concept when the book sold, I thought that is an amazing idea. And then when I actually read I read an early copy just a little ways before it was published and I couldn't put it down. I read it in a single night. It's that kind of great concept, but really smart and really about women and about how women move through the world and the expectations of them and the narrative voice of the main character is brilliant and just really sharp and not necessarily a likable character, but endlessly fascinating. So I can't recommend that one enough. It's really good. Si (55:51) So now it comes to my recommendation and I'm going to offer up Italo Calvino's If on a Winter's Night to Traveler. And essentially it's a book where a man goes into a shop to buy a copy of a new novel that he's been looking forward to reading. He gets it home, settles back in his armchair, starts reading. And then when he turns over to start reading the second chapter, it's like he's starting a completely different novel. And essentially the book... has been misbound, but he's sort of enjoying this new novel. He doesn't know the author. So he decides he'll go back to the bookshop in the morning and try and find out a little bit more about this other novel because he wants to read it. And when he gets there, there's a girl who's had the same problem and also wants to read this new novel. essentially a continuing saga of moving from one book to another. and the pair of them go on an adventure. So yeah, it's quite involved, but great fun. si (56:52) Yeah, that sounds very good. Si (56:55) Well, that's my recommendation. Lauren, thank you so much for chatting with me today. si (57:01) Thank you for having me. It's been brilliant. Bye. Bye.